So we did not get DS1 into any of the Catholic Boys Secondaries, and the reason was the baptism criteria. This will also be the case for ds2

[PureQuintessence]

The schools did not take into account our explanations for not baptizing ds1 within the first 6 months. (Which was my dads stroke and helping mum coping and getting dad on his road to recovery was more important to me than a baptism at the time - we organized a blessing for ds1, one which is used for a child that will be baptized, so a stop gap thing sort of)

We are ok for schools for now, as ds1 has accepted an offer to an independent.

But what about ds2?

No matter how often we go to Church, and observe holy days of Obligation, he was also not baptized until it was convenient to get the family together, while visiting my home town. It will mean that there is no point even trying, as this is so important.

And do I even want to send my precious children to schools that have no empathy for people who struggle? I seriously thought we had heaps of compassionate grounds, and our priest said so in his reference, that there were compassionate reasons to accept our son. But no.

Maybe this thread should be in Aibu or Religion / Philosopy but it has made me really question our options and life choices, and whether spending 30 k a year for education for both boys is going to be worth it.

Admission the Rite of Reception, as it is called, is a process by which children, or adults, who have previously been baptised into a Christian church recognised by the Catholic church, may subsequently be received ( or admitted, if you like) into the Catholic Church. It is not a substitute for Christian Baptism.
As Admissions Officer for a Catholic school in a Diocese whose only requirement is for children to be baptised Catholics, or to have been received into the church through this Rite; no mass attendance, priests reference, flower arranging etc, I do find all these criteria dispiriting. The view taken by the Diocese here is that Catholic children have a right to a Catholic education, regardless of whether or not their parents have been able, or willing, to bring them to mass or to take part in parish life.

Many popular Catholic schools use baptism by 6 months as an admissions criteria simply because they are swamped with genuine Catholic applicants and have to find a way of choosing between them.

To put it another way.

Many eastern Europeans do not baptize their child before their first birthday and this keeps those nasty ESOL children out.

OP

It is actually a form of racism, indirect, but probably still illegal, you could try that.

sashh One of the schools OP is applying/appealing to serves a large Polish community and the diocese have used their increasing need for places to assert that people who live in OPs vicinity will no longer be able to get places at that school and so a new school will be needed, though not for some years (so the new school was not needed just desired and therefore they didn't have to go through the Free School process . So clearly they are planning for Eastern Europeans to continue to be able to access the school in increasing numbers in spite of the admissions criteria pure www.richmond.gov.uk/home/council_government_and_democracy/democratic_processes_and_events/browse_committee_documents.htm?mgl=ieListDocuments.aspx&CId=163&MId=2758&Ver=4 these are the minutes in which the Bishop and Paul Barber the diocesan education officer make the assertion about rising birth rates in West London. It doesn't specifically mention Ealings Polish community in the minutes but I am pretty sure Paul Barber was explicit about it at the meeting. There is a link to the webcam of the meeting so you can see exactly what he says. I have no idea if you could use it in an appeal but it certainly suggests that G may be relaxing the criteria. I don't know if you could follow it up with any Polish community organisations in Ealing, especially if your DH has Polish connections, there may be a community awareness of what you need to do to get around this?

sashh - It is highly unlikely a challenge to the admission criteria on the grounds you suggest would succeed. The school is required to have an objective method of determining whether or not a child qualifies under faith based criteria and has certain exemptions from equalities legislation to allow them to do this. Since the Catholic church requires infants to be baptised "within the first few weeks", a requirement that a child be baptised within the first 6 months to gain priority is perfectly acceptable.

edam - Just for clarity, there is no requirement for any schools to give priority to children on social/medical grounds. Many do but it is by no means universal. With regard to looked after children, many faith schools do give top priority to all such children. I have a lot of sympathy for the view that all should do so.

Why are you not interested in going for the new Catholic school - they must have plenty of space because non Catholics have been offered it, I hear. Isn't that the purpose of this new school - to provide capacity for families like yours? It can't be too far away, given the other schools you mention

This is all food for thought.

In the event that ds2 should secure a place at either G or CVMS (or Thomas More know that we know it exist!), how likely is it that DS1 could get in on the sibling policy? If Ds2 (who is now begging for piano lessons) keeps up with piano maybe he can get a musical place. DS1 is in the school choir and is starting vocal training soon.

I am not sure I totally agree with all the politics surrounding a the whole Faith School issue. But if the schools are so oversubscribed, clearly there is a need for more?

In my sons class, there were only 2 children (including my ds) who did not get into their top choice RC Secondary. This other child has also accepted an independent place, and turned down the state comprehensive.

Be happy that your DSs are getting a far more balanced, rounded and less bigoted education by not going to a RC school.

anniesw, I am not in Richmond, I am across the borough border. It would mean 1 hour and 15 minutes journey by two buses, leaving home 7 am to be in school for 8.30.

I think it is unlikely you will get DS2 into CVMS. He was not baptised within 6 months of birth and your reasons in his case don't seem to justify making an exception. Sibling priority will not override that. You have a better chance with Gunnersbury who do not appear to require baptism within 6 months. If that is correct DS2 should get in on sibling priority.

Unfortunately anti-Catholic bigotry gets trotted out on many threads relating to Catholic schools. Ignore it.

Hello Pure, I think it's a shocker that you didn't get in because your boy didn't get baptised in time.
But then it's even more of a shocker that a looked-after child won't be given priority unless he or she is a Catholic looked-after child.
And, frankly, if I'm going to object to those criteria then why not to any criteria that refers to the religious beliefs/commitment/sussed-ness of the parents.
That's the thing, you can't object to one rather petty rule (e.g. baptism) and not object to them all. Having any faith based admissions is utterly illogical. I'm really sorry (genuinely) that you haven't got the school you want, but I think it's unfair that you had far more options than those of us without faith in the first place.
And I really despair of this business in Richmond. I mean god forbid that a Catholic school should have to give half its places to heathens in an area with a desperate shortage of school places...

And that's not 'anti-Catholic bigotry' by the way. I'm very equal in my dislike of all faith based admissions (and actually brought up a Catholic myself). Sometimes it can seem as if people are anti-Catholic in these discussions, but I think it's actually because the most egregious criteria do tend to be in Catholic schools such as Cardinal Vaughan (which has a truly shocking percentage of low attainers entering y7).

"Unfortunately anti-Catholic bigotry gets trotted out on many threads relating to Catholic schools. Ignore it."

Such a stupid thing to say!

Farewell "which has a truly shocking percentage of low attainers entering y7"

The children sit an exam. They are selecting 30 children from ability band 1, 60 from ability band 2 and 30 from ability band 3. So, only 25% are "high attainers". Yet all the children seem to do equally well at the end, so I guess the school must be doing something right.

Maybe this is all sort of convincing me that we are better off at the lovely independent "around the corner". Maybe we can apply for a bursary next year.

Has Cardinal Vaughn changed then? It appeared to have 71% high attainers last year......

.... and 2% low attainers........

Vatican II does make it very clear that babies should be baptised within six months of birth. Vatican II does apply to all Catholics and overides local cultural traditions. Our church newsletter frequently reminds parents of this fact.
It is unfortunate when parents delay for all sorts of reasons as a small service within a mass would initiate the baby and avoid this upset. I think part of the problem is that baptisms are now expected to be these huge occasions for which there is no need.

The rejection letter explained the ability bands and distribution of pupils. As my son was in band 1 he was competing for one out of 30 places!
Maybe they regards band 1 and 2 as high attainers?

bamboo, I think you are right, people tend to want to celebrate with family and make an occasion of it. But truly, it is just a thing between the child and God.

Back home, in the church community I grew up (Læstadian, within the Lutheran Church), many opt to get their children baptized by the hospital priest before leaving the hospital. I think this is a great idea.

Seeker - not stupid at all. Factual.

Yes but the number of low attainers (i.e. children who didn't get level 4 in their ks2 sats) is 3% i.e. far far below average. Their ability bands are very skewed and not reflective of the general population at all.
Eg low = 3%, Middle = 26%, and high = 71% going by ks2 sats. That is nothing like the general population which has far higher numbers of low and middle.
Mossbourne for example (and analysed rather brilliantly by a poster called KateShrub here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/1706501-Confused-by-Schools-results-how-do-I-understand-better) has 18% low, 58% middle and 23% high, which is a much more reflective spread.
Like I say I think it's rubbish that you were penalised but was not part of the appeal of the school that it is so selective (as is reflected in these stats)?

sorry crossed posts - Seeker I got 3% low attainers. So that's alright then.

Russian- I have seen no anti catholic bigotry on this thread. Anti faith school sentiment, certainly. And frustration with the way school places are allocated. And frustration with the way schools like Cardinal Vaughn manipulate the banding system. But no bigotry. It is not bigotry to believe that a particular faith group should not have special treatment from a publicly funded education system.

Seeker - how about Startail's post at 10:56:10 in which she charmingly says:

Be happy that your DSs are getting a far more balanced, rounded and less bigoted education by not going to a RC school.

That is bigotry pure and simple. But of course you missed that. (Or gave it a pass......)