Apologies to Cambridge matmos.

[grovel]

I just loved being number 1000. Such power!

No I am not bashing either, even if there were the equality of opportunity to get places at good local state comprehensive schools, I would not dismantle schools with long traditions of providing a good education, and meeting the needs of DCs. I do have sympathy for parents in places like Kent where selection is so pervasive that a bad day at 11 can erode opportunity but at the same time I have personal reason to know that Grammar Schools can provide opportunity, and I think it is the fairness of selection processes that are broken and need fixing rather than the schools themselves (though going on some of the uni applications I have seen some Grammar Schools may well provide less opportunity and intellectual stimulation than some comprehensives, and perhaps have become stale and complacent)

However I do believe that if there were equality of opportunity there would be a much smaller private sector. In fact we can even quantify that in our borough, if the number of Year 6s going on to state schools equalled the average of the top 10 most affluent boroughs in London then the Council would need to open two new 5 form entry secondary schools. That is a lot of people being deterred into private education by a LAs inability to respond to the needs of all it's pupils, who almost certainly would have stayed in the state sector.

"However I do believe that if there were equality of opportunity there would be a much smaller private sector."
I agree Copthall those cheerfully stumping up £34 000 PA will continue to do so what ever happens because they want and believe in for the want of a better word the whole package that's provided for that kind of money. But many MC parents struggling to pay fees would I'm sure happily return to the state sector if they believed in and felt that their DC's were getting an outstanding all round education.

I'm broadly with you, happy, but I think that quite a lot of what the £34k schools provide is wasted on young people! A state school child is not missing out by not having a 15th century chapel, cloisters, Fives Courts or pitches marked out for Winchester football (or the Wall Game).

Cotphall - our indie head has often wondered out loud where on earth the local council would put all the students if the school were to close. It's certainly something to think about & makes you wonder how many middle class families use private as a necessity!

@grovel.

Do you want to tell she-who-can't-be-named that her child is not missing out by not having Christmas carol service at a posh church attended by local dignitaries?

But that's different, I hear you say. Of course it is grovel. It always is.

But a state school child might like the opportunity to attend 30+ concerts a term or play in 15 + different musical groups (75+% of the school learn at least one instrument) orchestras, to ensembles big band jazz, percussion I could go on or sing in 5-6 different choirs or have a part in or see 5-6 plays a term. Or have 20+ sports to chose from because he hates football and the opportunity to practice/play/compete in his chosen sports 5-6 times a week. But its not all about sport the non sporty have the time everyday to pursue their areas of interest obviously the usual ones. maths magic and debating but for the less conventional they might like to belong to the Medieval Manuscript society, or try bell ringing, book binding, fly fishing in one of the most sought after fly fishing rivers in the UK or astronomy in the schools own observatory or look at Montys actual maps that he planned the D day landings on. Lets not forget independent schools are free of goverment restraints and can truely set their own curriculum, the time to study daily things just for the sake of it; English history classical civilisation politics economics free from exams so that both pupils and teachers can take something where they want. Finally as any parent at the enourmously successful St Paul's boys will agree its definitely not about 15 th century building lovely as they are if you have them it's about there being a myriad of opportunities and no limit on what you can achieve.
I looked long and hard at what the best of best state schools offer and IMO for us they fall along way short of what the best of the best boarding schools offer.

You know, BS, one of these days you are actually going to read my infamous carol concert post. Then you will, if you actually have the ability , understand what I was saying. And then you'll stop citing it at wholly inappropriate moments, and trashing perfectly interesting discussions.

I can dream, I suppose.

Does everything have to be about you seeker? I was talking about someone else.

As for trashing perfectly interesting discussions, you call the world versus pugs discussions interesting?

for your child happygardening and for your family. Neither DD or DH and I would have entertained Boarding, not least because DHs experience in one of our famous public schools was actually pretty horrific and left him far short of a good education, both academically and emotionally, in spite of the sixteenth century cloisters. He actually once answered the Trivial Pursuits question "In which Shakespeare play did Puck appear" with Macbeth, something I think the NC would actually have addressed, and sadly a chance to discover the joy of drama history and literature etc have completely been lost to him, though not a passion for Rugby............

As you know I do visit some modern Boarding Schools and whilst I see the advantages even the most normal seem cloistered and other worldly to me. DD even found one of the London day schools too, as she put it, "up itself"

I'm not turning this into a pro anti boarding debate I was responding to Grovels point that a state ed child is not missing out on anything in comparison to his counterpart at a £34 000 pa school.

And my point was not anti boarding, just that it isn't that the state educated child will miss out on nothing compared to his counterpart at a £34 000 pa school, but that he will be missing out on bad as well as good, it depends to some extent on the child and family. I think that our decision to go private was a bit like the current Chinese evaluation of Mao, 70% good, 30% bad and probably subject to further revision with hindsight. Not that if Gove has his way the DCs going to non academy state schools will ever learn about that

We can all provide anecdotal evidence of happy stretched children participating in a broad range of activities and unhappy children who feel that they've been ignored left on the bottom table to rot or who are traumatised by their school experience. These children will come from both sectors. What matters is that we as parents and our individual children are happy with our choices. As far as I can see there are many out there who are not happy with state ed for a variety of reasons and who feel that they have absoltely no choice but to pay for education and even worse those who have no choice but to send their DC to what can be at best described as a mediocre school.

The trouble here is that I think (I realise that it is only my experience, based on real life and reading stuff on here) is that a) many people decide they are unhappy with state education based on either their own experience at school or on misinformation and b) many people have one negative experience of state schools and extrapolate that experience to all state schools. This is an odd one. People have a bad experience of a private school blame the school and move to another private school. If they have a bad experience in a state school, they blame the whole sector and move to private.

I'm not saying this applies to everyone, of course. But I think it's quite common.

Oh, and if I was paying £34,000 a year for education, I would sure as hell expect it to be something pretty special and streets ahead of what is provided by the tax payer!

The thing is though seeker if you have a bad experience in private, you can cast your net around and see what else is on offer.

Wheras, if you have a bad experience in state, it's not that simple. You can't just pick and choose an alternative. The alternative school might be full, might be out of catchment, might require you to find God...Your choice might be limited to the point of being illusory.

I always amazed by how parents are heavily influenced by gossip especially about state schools. Many many years ago I remember a mother at our local 1 oclock club telling me that we lived in absolutely the the worst LA for education in England. "How do you know?" says I. "Oh this mum I met a toddler group told me she'd looked it up ". Well the reality was that we weren't living in the worst LA in the UK we were living in the 5th worst. Parents are also always keen to tell others about their awful experiences and of course there's likely to be more stories about state ed simply becasue more state schools exist.
I think its human nature to assume that if they pay its bound to be better and perhaps question less whats going on. Most independent schools are seriously good at the "soft cell" approach parents see gleaming facilities small classes rows of well behaved children clad in ridiculous pristine uniform They listen to heads talk about waiting lists and being two years ahead of their peers in the state sector I once looked at a local prep I thought the place was hideous 3 yr olds sitting behind desks but at the end of the tour parents virtually came to blows when the head started waiving around registration forms. A couple I met a few years later "Did you send ... to St Elsewhere?" "Yes I did it's a very good school with amazing results but ... was absolutely miserable it just didn't suit her she needs a less academic environment." She would have been better saying "its a ghastly exam factory with an enormously high drop out rate" and would the same parent been so generous if she'd removed .... from her local state primary? Just because you pay doesn't guarantee it will work for your DC.

True.
I suppose I'm thinking of my area where there are a number of very different state primary schools and where it's usually possible to move, and I know a couple of people who have tried one, not liked it and decided the whole actor wasn't for them. And, again, a friend who's child was bullied unmercifully in a prep school, and they moved him to another prep- the subtext being "think how much worse it would be in a state school"

The thing is though, most DC enter private school at 11.
So the parents have already had a pretty good taster of state education.

Plus there are all those parents with DC in both sectors.

Plus, those of us who have DC in private all the way generally have oodles of family and friends who have DC in state schools.

I'd in=magine the number of parents with no real information/experience are diminishingly small.

May be its the people we mix with but lots we know have never set foot in a state school. I was talking to a father the other month he like me lives very near to a nice rural MC town (very close to where I grew up) but chooses to send his DC's to a frankly mediocre at best independent. He spent 20 minutes moaning about the fees. "Have you ever looked at St Blogs in Smalltownsbury?" "No I haven't I sometimes think i should I hear quite good things about it!"

Us too, happygardening.

happy - shame on that woman for thinking that your LA was the worst on the UK. I mean, it was only the fifth worst LA in the UK so how small minded of her to think that your local schools were crap.

What wierd reasoning? A few years ago we were in a 4 star Orlando hotel. It was peak season so the only available rooms were either facing a building site, next to noisy laundry room or facing the noisy (in the day time) pool.

By your logic we should have concluded that 4 star hotels were over rated and gone for a 3 star.

I know that you don't like to shine the light onto yourself but if your DD was bullied you would try to switch to another GS. You certainly wouldnt think to go for your DS"s Sec Mod.

What do you continue to expect things from others that you don't expect from yourself?

... that was aimed st seeker.

Really? I'd never have guessed.

Totally the schools were crap I'm not denying it and the stats backed this up but she was adamant that it was the worst LA because thats what she'd been told by someone else. May be this was not a good example but I hear incorrect statements about both sectors all the time. A friend taught at a local boys independent day school often discussed on MN "we have the best results A level results in the in the UK" she would frequently say. They're good but not the best! Another friend was telling me how wonderful the results were at her DS's state school we beat St X (well known independent) this year no they didn't not according to government league tables. One badly behaved out of control child doesn't mean all are. A friend was delighting in telling me a story about a local school where a teachers was attacked (15 yrs ago) at work the next day I met a charming boy from the same school he description of it was far removed from my friends description of out of control yobs running around corridors disrupting every lesson.