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Secondary education

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Original poster

Apologies to Cambridge matmos.

346 replies

grovel · 15/02/2013 22:50

I just loved being number 1000. Such power!

OP posts:
Yellowtip · 16/02/2013 19:50

grovel as Russians says, there is no one 11+. I'm strongly in favour of grammar education at its best but don't think anyone anywhere would say that any school currently has devised a test which is perfectly fit for purpose, given the advent of tutoring.

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:05

Ok, would it read better to say that when Oxbridge was found to be an option the school suggested a particular college as one that several others had gone to from that school. Therefore giving the school more confidence in preparing him for the entrance procedure YELLOWTIP? Surely you are not so naive as to think schools suggest students apply randomly to various institutions that the school were unfamiliar with surely?

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:10

I may be completely out of date here, but I thought there was only one 11+ wherever you lived! Blush Might that be the answer? One test available for anyone to take wherever they live, then let parents choose schools according to their result. A completely level playing field! You might even get private schools to conform so that they can find the best candidates for their bursaries or scholarships Grin

teacherwith2kids · 16/02/2013 20:15

"Surely you are not so naive as to think schools suggest students apply randomly to various institutions that the school were unfamiliar with surely? "

Well, it's what I did - from an (at that time) highly academic girls' school with a good record of Oxbridge entrance. I went through the prospectus, decided on my priorities (small, mixed, lots of NatScis), selected a college on that basis, applied, was interviewed and got in.

The school knew enough about 'the Cambridge admissions process' (at that point, 4th term exam and interviews), to prepare me adequately. They knew that there was no way that any 'personal connection' would get me in ahead of someone who deserved it more, so there was no point in pointing me towards a college where any such personal connection existed.

The only slight tussle I had was over singe sex vs mixed, coming from a girls' school - but that was rapidly resolved.

BooksandaCuppa · 16/02/2013 20:16

No, there isn't one 11+ test, pugs. Some schools are VR only or NVR only or VR and NVR or English and Maths, or VR, NVR and English etc.

Some organise their own; some work together to provide an area-wide test etc etc.

RussiansOnTheSpree · 16/02/2013 20:21

PUGS I suspect that Yellow has a better grasp of the Oxford admissions process than you.

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:21

The only advantage TEACHER, was that the school had some knowledge of the application procedure. No back door entrance!

TotallyBS · 16/02/2013 20:22

Pugs - My friend has been heavily tutoring her DC since the summer (her DC is currently in Yr 5) for 11+ entry to my DC's school. He is scoring on average 80% in his mocks which appears to be his peak. Unfortunately 90% is considered to be the safe mark. So my friend is thinking of going for Plan B ie a less selective indie.

My point? You can take a child, familiarise him with the format and get him to practice working under exam conditions BUT you can't tutor him to pass the actual 11+ itself. I mean, if you look at 5 words and you can't see the odd.one out then no amount of tutoring is going to get you to see the odd one out.

People will tell you that a not so bright child can be tutored to pass the 11+. They have to believe that because otherwise they can't make the argument that GS/indie places go to the children of well off parents because they can afford tutors.

Bottom line. I spent a few weeks familiarising my DCs with the format. They spent the next 6 months practicing on pass papers. I could have tutored them for another 6 months and it wouldn't have made a difference to their score. In fact it could have had the reverse effort since they were showing signs of being over cooked.

If a parent want to hire an expensive tutor.to tutor their DC for years then that is up to them but I wouldn't hold up their DCs as examples of kids that have an advantage.

RussiansOnTheSpree · 16/02/2013 20:22

Sorry, pressed enter too soon - I was going to go on and say that my experience of the Cambridge admissions process was to apply to the college I fancied. My school did not tell me where to apply. That would have been ridiculous.

teacherwith2kids · 16/02/2013 20:22

The application procedure is exactly the samefor all colleges, though - how could knowing about 1 college make any difference whatever??

Yellowtip · 16/02/2013 20:23

Yes, I really am that naïve. Can't imagine my DC being that led either. Come on pugs, move with the times!

pugs hate to say it, but you do sound woefully naïve yourself on the 11+ front. Though tbf you do say you aren't in the zone.

In my area the indies are poor relations to the grammar. Most of the grammar kids would get a scholarship from the indies no problem.

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:25

Maybe we should add a musicianship & sporting skills test to our ideal 11+ too so that the sporty or musical ones could go to schools that would meet their needs Smile

teacherwith2kids · 16/02/2013 20:25

And for all the other universities I applied to, I um...read the prospectus, visited them (by mself, by train) and applied according to the instructions. Got offers from all of them, so can't have gone too wrong...

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:32

TotallyBS - you spent 6 months preparing your kids for the 11+???? Shock I had heard of hot housing, but that is ridiculous! My DD got an academic scholarship with absolutely no practice for her entrance test. I can only imagine the stress levels on these tutored kids - how is it fair on anyone?

Yellowtip · 16/02/2013 20:32

No we shouldn't. Why should we pugs? It's about academic ability first and foremost and as soon as you add in extra things such as sport and music you water it down. Often musical and sporting talent will follow academic ability but it would be absurd to insist. All rounders are fine in their place.

Yellowtip · 16/02/2013 20:35

For goodness sake pugs you said your DD's school is fairly mediocre. You can't compare all schools with all other schools. A scholarship to one of my local indies might mean a fail to Westminster or SPGS.

TotallyBS · 16/02/2013 20:37

pugs - the selectives that I am familiar with do have a music route. You still need to meet the minimum academic standard though. Some (all?) Indies also have sports route. We have some county class kids that are only average in terms of academics.

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:38

YELLOWTIP - I am dreaming of my perfect education system of course! There would be grammars, specialist music or sport schools, maybe specialist schools for 'hands on' types who enjoy that kind of thing. & it wouldn't just be the grammars who would be able to pick & choose pupils either dreams . Pupils would all get offers & then choose from those that wanted them .....

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:42

YELLOWTIP - I never said DD's school was average! It's actually top 30 in the league tables.

Yellowtip · 16/02/2013 20:42

Well Utopia is a wonderful thing unless you're a gritty realist.

It would be great if you could stop shouting my name. Just saying.

Yellowtip · 16/02/2013 20:44

I thought you said it wasn't that selective pugs. Tbf, top 30, it probably is. You also said all kids at your DDs' primary would almost certainly get in so....

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:45

Sorry - just can't get my stupid phone to do bold! No offence meant!!! Blush

TotallyBS · 16/02/2013 20:46

Pugs - Prepping for 6 months would be stressful for your DC. And he is an academic scholar at his school???

If the academic scholar is that delicate then I would hate to imagine what the quality of the intake is like.

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:47

Prep not primary! Any kids not expected to pass are either not entered into the prep at all or leave well before the entrance exam.

pugsandseals · 16/02/2013 20:51

So only the tough, highly tutored should take the test then? Hmm 'Highly intelligent must not apply without extensive tutoring'...

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