Apologies to Cambridge matmos.

[grovel]

I just loved being number 1000. Such power!

Russians - I would agree with you IF all had the same access to education! However, A September baby will have a whole year in reception class, an August baby just one term. They are assessed in our local school in that term for table streaming the following year (year 1). How is this fair & equal?

grovel I agree that it's counterintuitive for the Tories to intervene in education policy and insist all schools set...but I'm suprised the Blair governemnt didn't.

I uess they hoped all schools would swap to setting of their own accord. And whilst the numbers of pupils etted in English and Maths did indeed rise, the numbers of those setted for science and MFL remained very static.

In fact,only 50% of all pupils are setted in MFL. so classes must contain some pupils who are very proficient indeed, with a good grasp of all grammar, and those with simply no flair for languages at all (I'm looking at you, DH).

'this means I'm really not one of the thick kids anymore'. What?

Seeker - maybe it's because in my head, I am comparing the grammar system me & dh grew up with, with the fully comprehensive system we now live in? I think most people moving out of one system & into another would make direct comparisons & also initially presume that they are both fair examples of their system! Just the same as you had no idea there were state comprehensive 'all through' schools (ages 3-18). We can only go on what we know & actually, do you really know if & when the comprehensive system streams or sets & from what age? I am presuming your experiences are 100% of grammar system, so it is probably quite likely that you know little (by comparison) about a fully comprehensive system & how schools use it.
Just saying, we are all capable of making what seem like very sensible assumptions

Yellowtip - not meant in an offensive way I am sure. Just that even though her teachers have given her high marks, put her in special extension clubs & praised her work highly, her lack of confidence meant that she could never believe that it was her that they were talking about & that she really is clever/academic! She did follow up by saying, ' I don't understand, they can't really mean me can they?'

" Just the same as you had no idea there were state comprehensive 'all through' schools (ages 3-18)."

I'm still not convinced there are!

Pugs in some LEAs all kids start in September. Not where I live, actually, my DCs all started in January (and when I was a kid, I started school in May). My youngest in year DD2 has never not been on the top table. Since you seem happy to confuse one instance of personal experience with verified data about the entire population, I shall do the same - the late August born are obviously the most advanced in any school year.

Your daughter is unique. As is mine. As is everyone's. You just can't extrapolate from one child to the whole population. Incidentally - most kids these days start school having had several years of nursery (or perhaps being at home with a SAHM who has time to do educational stuff with them). How can you say an August born hasn't had the same access to education? It depends on the parents. Not on the month of birth.

Russians - not even you can possibly ignore the fact that in year 1, the September born will have had a fifth more life experience than the August born. Already being 5 when the August born is only 4. That would have to be some great school system that could accommodate both equally! & if you're asking my opinion about when it is best to start school, in the September of reception year many youngest in year will still be afternoon napping & will find it impossible to concentrate for a whole day at school!
No way is either entry date a good one. For many a nursery is the more appropriate setting for much longer than it is possible.

I thought there was research to show that there was no significant difference in outcomes for Summer borns?

Where are these 3-18 state schools please? My googling has been unsuccessful.

Seeker - I can't get it to link, but one I know of is Caroline Chisholm. Find it on Wiki!

Seeker Im trying to remember the name of the school which is definitely reception through to yr 11 although separate heads for primary and senior and they are next to each other but divided by fencing. They share the same name and children automatically move onto to the senior school. As I get older and more decrepit I jus cant remember names!!! And the other primary I mentioned that's the heads plans, But its a one stop sop primary (community centre) theres a GP surgery, dentist, job centre, education centre for parents, the council hold surgeries there to address housing concerns etc. all in one building his "vision" is to extend this to senior schooling as well.

Some might call ours an all-through system, as the lower school sets you into the pyramid governed by a head who has a say over how everybody in the middle & lower schools are educated!

I've tried to google the school but cant find it which is frustrating because it was only a few months ago that a parent at work was telling me about the school.

Well, every day's a school day!

Off out now- I'll read about it properly when I get home.

For some the state system is fab, maybe a comp that streams, for others it is a grammar school, for others it is a private system.

Just because YOU have a great school doesnt mean that it is the same in the whole country, its not. We are in a grammar area. I might have considered using them if I thought that they would pass and more importantly that they had the time to go through past papers, some tutoring (yes I am one of those!) but we chose the private system. The days ae long and they attend school on Saturday with matches in the afternoon so there is just Sunday.

So, good for everyone who is happy with the state system but dont presume that its all the same everywhere.....

PUgs As I said, I am the mother of a youngest in year child. So I know exactly what I'm talking about.

I second Russians as another mother of a youngest in year child.

Seeker - try Swindon Academy. It calls itself an all through school though based on 2 sites.
Don't know anything about it, except I had a feeling that it (or something like it) existed in Swindon LEA

There is a degree of logic in pugs view on late birthdays especially for reception yr 1 and when my DS was at primary age many parents often talked about this. Every child is different as our requirements and expectations of education as parents. I don't see any problems with children going to different schools whether they be super super selectives independents or Steiner schools as long as all can access to good free education if they want too. By the way I too have a summer born DS who the last time he was in state ed was not only top of his year but top of the next years as well!!

Yes Yellowtip Russians Happygardening Mother of youngest, and oldest in years, youngest in year has always been the higher achiever, and my eldest in year actually redid Year 3 after an International move. The youngest in year was undoubtedly physically immature in Reception, completely past her sell by date when I picked her up, but she just hoovered up the opportunity to do more academic work, and was always ahead in primary. She is dyslexic as well but found her own strategies around it, she holds her pen very strangely still but Reception teacher saw no point in fixing what was not broken in terms of end result.

Are we nearly a significant minority?

To be clear - I'm not saying youngest in year kids can't have problems. I'm saying that it's not inevitable, that there is too much MN orthodoxy about this and it seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy for some poor people, and that actually, the stage a child is at in his or her education is much more down to the child than to the month in the year in which she or he was born. Bright kids do learny stuff in nursery. And it's often a better environment (the nursery my kids all attended was a far better EYFS environment than their reception class in school. And, indeed, for two of them, better than year 1 proved to be as well (in terms of actually teaching them anything at all ).

happygardening That is my issue, around here some have access to outstanding state comps, and some have access only to improving comprehensives that have been taken over by Swedish sponsors who use educational methods still unproven in this country. It seems crazy that your academic child will go to the top set of a very oversubscribed outstanding conventional comprehensive if you come from one road and if you live in the next your state option is a school where there are no classrooms, just open spaces with artificial turf benches, teachers facilitate individualised learning plans which involve sitting in front of computer screens for hours on end, and come sixth form there are only 10 A levels on offer, only 6 of which are academic. The methods may work, that remains to be seen, but if you have an academic child who thrives in a traditional classroom you aren't being given a choice. So oit is scarcely surprising so many go the grammar /private On top of that we have a Council that decides the next priority for expenditure is a new exclusive Catholic School, to further their aims of creating choice and diversity

There are a couple of all through (3-18) schools in my county too - though I believe they get larger in yr 7 (take from other feeder primaries). They're fairly recent, though, an outcome of 'academisation' so not sure if relevant to the discussion at hand.

I personally find the concept of children's educational fate being sealed at 5 to be more likely to be something being done by parents than teachers. Hot foot it over to g & t where there are numerous examples of parents hand-wringing over the possibility that their bright four year old isn't being challenged enough becautd they taught them to read at home. The implication of this is always that other children couldn't possibly be allowed to catch up or, heaven forbid, overtake their children as that would automatically mean school is failing them, etc.

Russian - similar experience of nurseries here. DD was happy, confident & learnt lots at a wonderful nursery she attended part-time. The difficulty came for her when she had her EYFS assessment within 2 weeks of joining school reception class in a mixed EYFS setting of 50 kids in one room & I was told any progress she had made at 'the other' nursery could not be used to inform teachers of where she had got to! How confident would anybody be taking that kind of assessment in a class of 50 within 2 weeks of leaving a nice, familiar nursery setting with just 10 other kids?
At the time it felt strange that they didn't want her report from her previous setting. I never knew it would consign her to table 2 streaming for the next 2 years or more & had hoped there would be some continuous assessment in that time, but it doesn't look like there was is this particular school.
Very sad we have had to go private, but very happy DD is now settled and happy like she was in the 1st nursery setting. Doesn't stop the fees being bloody hard work to pay though!!!

Copthall Im all for addressing under performing state schools and even paying more tax to do it if need be although I still wouldn't move my DS as I'm happy and believe in what I'm paying for. But I don't see bashing those who choose to pay or chose grammar schools Steiner schools or even home ed.not saying you are just a general comment) will make a scrap of difference.