Dunottar/ Reigate Grammar - Merger, or what?

[quandry]

Got the letter today, and I have to say I don't really understand what is going on?
Is RGS bailing out Dunottar to save it going under?
I can't see the advantages for RGS at all?

Someone suggested that perhaps they'd make it co-ed, less academic school in the future (like a Box Hill in Reigate?) and share facilities more? (Sports fields closer than Hartswood?)

Same as you bearleigh and Nikki, I answered the survey saying yes to all the co-ed ideas etc but I still want to see results and proven record for the next 4 or 5 years before sending my child there, which unfortunately will be too late as I will need a school for sept 2015.

I think the issue here is choice. Luckypup it sounds like you don't want to send your kids to D. That is your choice.

The nice thing is that a continuing D will extend that choice to others.

Albert, not at all! I never said that, so don't assume that is the case. As I quite clearly said, I would like to see a few years of on going growth and results before making a huge financial decision that could affect my children's future.
I would live to send my children there due to the location but I am not willing to take a gamble.

The UL website shows they recently opened dozens and dozens of schools - all state comprehensive schools even though some were independent schools before UL helped them.

The famous independent schools like Caterham represent the work of UL last century.

If Reigate is now going to get a new UL run state secondary school (which seems to be the only thing UL do these days) then that will be a big surprise as there are already co-ed schools in Reigate including some such as RAA that are not full.

What do you think? I guess that the local authority wil be pleased.

Can you post the link that shows these schools? Thanks

I don't think it works like that Lilly - I think they would be need to be appointed by the Council to take over a school?

But what if they made it co-ed and then offered to sell it to the council as a state academy? That would be a nice little earner for them....

Anyway, Michael Gove seems to think they're wonderful, so that must mean they are, non?

www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6106656

To be fair, that article is rather old.

There are other articles out there, just google them. I'm sure there is a rigorous due diligence process in place on both sides, to ensure it is fully understood what ULT can potentially offer assuming the trustees agree to any proposals.

Albert, I just went to the UL website
unitedlearning.org.uk/AboutUs/ANationalGroup/SchoolJoiningDates.aspx

I did 'research' by putting the school names into google. I think that, of the nearly 40 schools who joined UL since the turn of the century approx 90% are now state schools (academies) with a couple of prep schools and 1 or 2 independents schools (but for how long you might ask!). Some of the 36 or 37 academies were independent schools before UL helped out.

The UL is clearly an Academies 'factory' for the government.

Didn't Save Dunottar start because it was essential to save a long standing, high achieving, girls' school, with a 'unique' ethos in the independent sector, with a much-loved Headmistress and staff body. We will now see a new, comprehensive, co-ed, state school with a brand new ethos, new Head and mostly (or all) new staff within 2 years. Why do I just know that there will be a Dunottar Voice leaflet in my letter box claiming that all their initial aims have been met?

Well we need not have gone down this route if RGS offered some support! so please everyone this is comforting to parents at Dunottar . What else can we do. We don't want closure . Im willing to take the risk . Parents will do what they have to do. The grass is not always greener ……

I understand parents wanting to save the old Dunottar they loved. Although it seems saving it as a girls school has been scrapped as an idea. I don't understand a desire to just save it in a totally different form, possibly as a state mixed academy. This is a TOTALLY different beast. Why is that a thing to fight for? Is this about just ensuring something, anything continues there? Is it about trying to make sure RGS don't get it and goi g for any option at all to avoid that? I really can't believe most parents see it like that.

I keep watching this discussion and have commented earlier. I now feel compelled to say something again as most of the posters on here are so negative! Have you forgotten that the school is to be closed!!

I take my hat off to the work that the parents are putting in and I doubt very much that most of the posters on here would be that driven and helpful it was their kids school!!

United Learning are a big organisation and most of the schools added to their network since 2000 are Academies but not all. I can only find one school that since joining United Learning has become and Academy and if you look at its history and demography it was the best thing to do to keep the school going. The other independent schools who joined are still independent and from the looks of them thriving. There are also some brand new schools that United Learning are helping and doing what the Government should be doing!

On another point on a previous post Caterham was mentioned about not being so forthcoming with its association with United Learning but maybe that is because it still has ties with the United Reformed Church which founded the school.

Lets all look forward to March 13th and hope that Dunottar can be a great school. Without trying, you will not know and if you fail which, I doubt it will have not been in vain. Three cheers for Dunottar and what it stands for.

For the doubters I am not a Dunottar parent but a concerned poster!

I've been watching this thread with some interest for a while. Comments about Dunottar's USP as a girls' school and parents possibly not wanting to stay at Dunottar if it becomes co-ed are interesting because the vaste majority who have left since the chairman's speech last September have gone to co-ed schools - mainly down the road to RGS, actually. It will be interesting to see the stats with the parent survey about how many would be happy for it to become co-ed because I think most of them are. Dunottar's USP is small classes - that won't change because of the size of the classrooms! And what are these wild speculations about it becoming a state academy? They are just assumptions, nothing more. I'm sure it will be a case of once bitten twice shy and if a new partner is the way forward, everything will be hammered out with the lawyers. Chocolatewombat and NikkiSurrey, I agree that a range of opinions are important and thank you for helping to explore things from different perspectives. You have raised important points that interested parties need to be aware of. A slightly more optimistic tone from time to time I am sure would be welcome. Some of my friends are commenting that you might be RGS stooges! I'm sure that's not true.

"Dunottar's USP is small classes - that won't change because of the size of the classrooms!"

I have no RGS connections, other than I have gone to an open day, and Reigate is certainly within distance for me to look at for secondary. But I have been in a (successful) school which was taken over by one of these groups (sold by the proprietor to fund their retirement). They will be looking dispassionately at the whole site, and small class sizes do not work financially at senior school level. We were stunned when one of the options being actively considered by the group was to build a new school from scratch on the existing playing fields and then sell off the main building (which currently houses 20+ classrooms for 15-22 children) for development.

This isn't about people being "stooges", or overly negative. We are talking about a school which is currently in consultation about closing and has informed potential 2014 parents of that fact. You can't really get more negative than that, and that is what the governors have been saying.

If you are an existing Dunottar parent then your priority is obviously your dds, and clearly many of you don't like the other state or independent options in the area, and would prefer your dds to avoid the "trauma" of moving. I appreciate that, but you also need to fully understand what sort of education your dd will get over the next few years. As I see it whilst there is a guarantee that your dd can complete her current exam courses, it is not clear by whom she will be taught, or even on which site.

For any prospective parents, I'm not sure that you even can join the school currently (ie they won't give you a contract). And even if you could, with the school having announced that it is looking to close, it is scarcely a viable option. It will take a lot of time and a lot of funding to develop what will essentially be a new school, possibly still with the Dunottar name. Bearing in mind that there seems to be many comments around needing value for money and cheap fees, then I suspect small class sizes will be the first to go.

I'm still not sure that I have understood what the special "ethos" of Dunottar is meant to be, though if it is purely due to having a small group of girls in each yeargroup, then it strikes me that whatever option is on the table, that is likely to disappear, unless teachers are willing to work for very little pay indeed.

It may be better for DV to divide into 2 groups with slightly different interest - those who will look after the girls and staff whilst the current school essentially closes (even if not in name), and those who want to get fully involved in a new school, possibly on the lines of a free school model. Because as an outsider it simply appears that all of the energy is going into making sure that whatever happens the land and buildings doesn't go to RGS, as well as cheering on all of the girls. There is no sign of the sensible people beavering away in the back somewhere, who may or may not come up with something concrete.

I know that the DV is priding itself on its fantastic range of marketing, accountancy and legal skills across the parental body. Whoever is in charge of marketing and communication really needs to be fired. The amount of frivolous spam on twitter etc really makes it look as if you have never tried to market anything before, and seriously give the impression of a group of Surrey housewives who have been given a Challenge Anika type of fundraising projects. If Dunottar could be saved by baking cupcakes, tweeting and printing hoodies, then I would have total confidence in it. But I would stop bombarding the twitterfeeds, forums and letterboxes of the area until a few people have spent some time sitting down and working out what the next steps really are. All it is doing is damaging whatever reputation may be left further afield.

I think the drive and energy shown by the parents group is to be commended, and I'm sorry if it looks like these are all negative comments but I think individuals who aren't so emotionally invested in the outcome can offer different viewpoints that in the heat of the moment can be overlooked.
ULT does seem in its recent past to be very much involved in the setting up of Academies, Surrey will have a lack of secondary school spaces, there's been years of junior schools in the area having to take bulge classes that is going to filter through the system. I'm sure that whoever is responsible for state education provision in Surrey would be delighted if ULT said a couple of years down the line, that they were converting Dunottar into an Academy, this would allow greater choice for all parents not just those who can afford school fees.
If that is the way Dunottar goes, so be it at least it will still be open,but I hope that everyone involved understands that could be the outcome and isn't as surprised as they were when consultation to close was announced.
I think what I am trying to say in a long winded way is study these proposals with open eyes, alert to all possibilities.

Hi LadyMuck: just a thought... the brilliant thing about Twitter is that you chose who you follow. Hate the stream? Switch it off. Very empowering

You ask about the ethos? Great line of enquiry. In essence the approach of Dunottar is non-academic selection, and support of the 'whole child' so that their specific talents are nurtured. You will find some really great notes of support from current and past pupils on what this is like from the inside... and the result is an amazing educational value add. This is a third-party measure many of us were unaware of before: the Uni of Durham maintains a database of pupils' attainment at 11+ and 16+ and the 'value add' of a school is the improvement that their pupil attain. For Dunottar this has consistently been about a grade.

No stoogery ( is that a word?) on my part Angellina I promise. However As I said upthread I am an RGS parent, and my niece is at Dunottar, so I have links and contacts with both schools .I've also lived in Reigate for twenty years, so have seen both schools go through their respective histories over that time, and have talked to many friends as they have made decisions about secondary schools over the years.

I think that those of us who are being perceived as negative are perhaps just discussing the issues from a slightly more detached and objective viewpoint? Also, I'm sure many people here are professional people with skills in law, accountancy, marketing etc and this is actually an interesting 'case' from all those perspectives. The process of exploring all angles and playing the role of 'critical friend' is actually quite important in the evaluation process.
ChocWombat is fair more eloquent than I am, but I sense that we are seeing this in the same way. The noise from DV has understandably been very 'campaign-like' with a lot of the rah factor - and that is fine and understandable. That will keep people going, and raise money etc, but it needs to be underpinned by proper rigorous analysis, sound strategic and financial planning, and watertight agreements, and presumably that is what these funds are going towards?

However until we ( or the trustees at least) see the full proposals, then all that seems to be happening is lots of activity firing off in different directions. That can create a dangerous momentum in its own right. for example yesterday I saw a tweet which had been retweeted which simply said 'DUNOTTAR HAS BEEN SAVED- Hurrah!'

Yesterday I got a phone call from my sister asking me to lobby the RGS governors and tell them that the UL proposal was the best option for Dunottar. Another RGS parent received an email asking the same thing.
How could we do that without knowing anything about either the UL option or any alternatives?
Is this DV's latest strategy, to bombard the governors with spam from uninformed, but well-meaning, parents? That's just going to annoy them and slow the process.

Wombat & others have already said a lot of what I believe. Basically people need to step back and remind themselves what exactly they are fighting for in all of this.

• at what point does Dunottar cease to be Dunottar, other than in name?
• is the objective to retain a non-RGS school on the site, at any cost?

At the end of the day ULT is a shrewd business operator, and they will want to maximise the commercial opportunity from any school. That probably means significant growth on the site.

That could have both positive and negative impacts on the local Reigate community:

• more business & footfall in Reigate town centre as increased no of families passing through
• increase in house prices in area if it became a popular state academy with assoc catchment area
• negative impact on traffic flow around peak times (none of the roads around High Trees, Chart Lane, Blackborough etc are really suited to all the coaches etc and it's often gridlock in the mornings )
• negative impact on families / house prices in High Trees road area

( I used to work as a senior manager in a retail organisation, so I do know a bit about this ).

I just feel that the unbridled automatic enthusiasm for the UL offer needs to be tempered with some critical questioning and counter argument.
I don't mean to offend anyone, or demean the effort that has been going into the DV campaign - it is clearly amazing how they have rallied such support in such a short time.

Nor am I immune to the effect this is having on parents, staff and students. I was talking to my niece at the weekend, and I can see how upsetting it all is. I genuinely hope the right solution is found, but as someone else said, please be careful.

Absolutely tiredanddetermined, because that is exactly what a twitter marketing campaign is designed to do - stop people who are currently in the market for private schooling to turn it off . Perhaps a bit more thought should go into who they are trying to market to, and what it is that they are trying to achieve by it. The fact that Dunottar parents only seem to have found out about value added scoring is almost scary given Caterham were definitely selling themselves on being the top Surrey school for value add a few years back. It is hardly a new measure. ANd yet, despite everything that is said about added value at Dunottar I still can't find the actual measure on its site anywhere? I can see lots about how the measure is being interpreted, but in comparison with Box Hill and LND how good is it?

I cross- posted with LadyMuck but interestingly we seem to be having he same reaction to all the activity...

I can't help getting the feeling that there is an element of D parents who believe that any Dunnottar is better than no Dunnottar, from the pov of avoiding them having to make an alternative plan and potentially disrupt their daughters' education. I know that changing schools is difficult and making that commitment is hard but really any new format needs to be viewed as one option in the marketplace which some will choose, others perhaps not. If current parents can find a way to keep going for up to 6 more years then their dd's will be ok and the baton passes to a new generation. How many current D parents have younger children they are willing to commit to this longer term, girls or co-ed ? As to small class sizes , personally I thought 4 in A level Maths was too small and I'm sure any external investor would too.

OK, it's your critical friend here again....

I was just looking at the statement from UL's CEO, Jon Coles ( who earns in excess of £250k a year by the way, along with 33 other UL executives who earn more than £60k - source Charities Commission data)

Here it is:

"We would like to thank Dunottar Voice for approaching United Learning and working with us to examine whether we think we could take the school on successfully. We have now looked at this in sufficient detail to be confident that we can do so successfully.

We fully recognise that for a single school, covering short term cash shortfalls is highly problematic. But as a major educational charity, we do not have the same difficulty in doing this where we can see that there is a strong market for the school in the long term. We are clear that there is a strong market for a co-educational Dunottar in the future and would therefore be prepared to cover short-term losses in order to create that outstandingly successful school for the future.

If this proposal has the support of parents, we will put forward a plan for taking the school into United Learning and running it as an excellent school for the long term. We recognise that parents want certainty as soon as possible, and so we would look to reach agreement about this with the current governors in a matter of days.

It was a huge pleasure to visit your lovely school today and to see staff and pupils remaining focused, studying hard and enjoying themselves. I feel that Dunottar’s values are our values. It would give us great pride and satisfaction to be part of the school’s future."

Two things here jump out for me:

• at no point is any reference made to maintaining its status as an independent school
• and this we would look to reach agreement about this with the current governors in a matter of days smacks to me of trying to rush through an agreement before anyone begins to question anything. Limited time offer! Grab it while you can!

Hopefully the current governors will take the appropriate amount of time to consider any proposal. If the consultation doesn't end until the 13th March they have sufficient time to analyse this properly.

Yes - they should of course ask for the full proposal and evaluate it within that time frame. They can always walk away if it's not right.

I wonder what will happen to numbers in the meantime though? A month is a long time for families, especially with students on GCSE courses, to sit tight and hope. I wonder if there will be more leavers after half term? I know one Year 9 girl moved to another school last week, so obviously some families have decided they can't wait for the decision.

Some of the comments on here are just insulting. The people behind DV may be parents/teachers/old girls but they are all driven, intelligent, professional people who know what they are doing and in areas where expertise is lacking have taken on those who do (hence the fundraising). They are also gagged by the NDA's that have been signed so disclosure of a lot of information is not possible - despite the wishes of a lot of bystanders on this site.

Everyone seems to be saying UL are shrewd operators - what about the RG Group? Couldn't have been more shrewd themselves. Dunottar parents may have had a bit more respect if they had said "we don't think Dunottar is viable so it will close as an individual school but RG Group will offer a place to all those girls who would like one". RG Group behaviour has been self serving all along - they gain the space they have always wanted and get rid of the girls they don't want.

Nikki - If Dunottar remains open (whatever the management may be)and attracts more pupils there will be more traffic but 'negative' - it will still be a positive delight to park up there as opposed to the chaos that reigns down at RGS on the main road every day. If RG Group are in charge up at High Trees its not going to be any different as they will expand their numbers anyway. DV's objective in all this is choice - if RG Group are in charge there won't be any choice.

Lady Muck - Value add is explained on the Dunottar school website (just have to look). It's one of the highest in the country and is a whole grade. It was always measure before and has nothing to do with UL being in the picture.

My post crossed with the last couple;

NikkiSurrey "limited time offer - grab it while you can!" Sounds a bit like the offers being given by RGS to Dunottar girls. Only reason they have made those kinds of limited offers is to move more bums from Dunottor to RGS to perpetuate their Governors stance that Dunottar's numbers are shrinking! Sorry but despite all the claptrap spouted on this site they weren't critical until RG Group interfered.