Dunottar/ Reigate Grammar - Merger, or what?

[quandry]

Got the letter today, and I have to say I don't really understand what is going on?
Is RGS bailing out Dunottar to save it going under?
I can't see the advantages for RGS at all?

Someone suggested that perhaps they'd make it co-ed, less academic school in the future (like a Box Hill in Reigate?) and share facilities more? (Sports fields closer than Hartswood?)

but Forago you probably wouldn't have a year's history before you had to commit to a Year7 place, say this time next year. So a term and a half at best

Interestingly the 700 or so responses to the survey of prospective parents were really positive... and the feeder schools are all very keen to see choice within the town and have encouraged their parents to be open. DV has taken this data with a huge pinch of salt to develop their thinking re projections and it still stacks up. Are they just pathetically optimistic, I hear you cry? Well, no. Those of us who are committed to seeing the school continue want it to be for another 87 years, not just 7. Do you think we want our girls in a school that is stumbling on? No, of course we do not.

The position a year ago was complex - and I think everyone in DV is feeling pretty sick about not questioning the situation more then. We trusted the then trustees - and didn't realise the choices that they were making for the school. At that time Mr Walker (RGS chair, and now Dunottar chair) was measured and supportive when addressing the parents. And a lot of us were suspicious of it, and a lot were not. Replaying that episode is probably not helpful. We're here now. We have people with a big cheque book prepared to make this work. Let's do what we can to help that happen.

The "rah! rah!" tone might cloy a bit for some outside the school. For many in it, it does help.

I saw a lovely note from one prospective parent last week giving very fulsome support and was told it was one of many. All those with immediate interest in the school are being talked to by the school on a regular basis and having their questions answered.

Time will tell. I'm starting to believe that this really will work out.

Tired I was one of those who responded to the survey :) and my response was, as the mother of primary age dc, anything that gives more school place choice in the area is fine by me! I have no doubt this is a viable option in the medium term - so for what are no y3/2/1 etc boys I can really see it. I am just unsure as to how the transition will be managed in the first year or two, that will be the tricky part. But then I was not aware of the potential involvement of United Learning and, presumably, this is what they do.

I have a couple of friends with girls in the school at the moment and I know how upsetting it has all been. I would obviously hope that the school goes forward for their sake, but am also interested in there being more options for my dc, potentially.

Its the transition that will be tricky.

Totally agree. And it is my view that the sooner the board can say: "yes, we will let this school run with this new approach" the sooner we can see if people will go for it. The longer we wait, the more people are losing their nerve... and while I think it is a shame I do totally understand. Everyone needs to make their own decision at times like these and we all need to respect the choices each other make.

Tired, thank you for your post.
Yes I can understand the 'rah rah' does help keep the spirits up of Dunottar parents going through a hard time. And I can see maintaining morale is important.

What I liked about your post, was the honesty about last year. It makes sense to me that the old trustees didn't perhaps paint quite a clear picture of the problem for a number of years, (to prevent panic perhaps) and also that they rushed through the agreement with RGS. I guess THEN was the time DV was really needed and people can see that now. From the post upthread, it sounds like those in the primary section that was closed last year, felt that more questions needed to be asked then.

I guess the senior parents wanted the school to survive, saw an offer (however short term in its nature, in reality) and just grabbed it. It seems to me that the old Trustees are largely responsible for the lack of full I formation being given to parents in enough time for alternatives to be considered. They approached RGS (I'm sure in desperation) but did not spell out the nature of the deal to Dunottar. It doesn't sound like RGS ever hid the very limited nature of it, but parents got excited and thought there was some kind of long term guarantee.

Some people posting on this thread, seem to be a bit like those parents you describe last year. They are so keen to keep going, that they will seize on anything. You are right that Dunottar needs a long term bright future and not to stumble on. Will United, or other educational bodies own the site, if you go into partnership or whatever it is called? How quickly can they call 'time up' on the school? I'm sure you DV guys are wise to the Qs that need asking this time round. And you sound like someone who will know if the numbers just don't stack up and it cannot work, despite wanting it to.

So, are you trying to break the merger with RGS? How does that work in practice? Are you free to go to another organisation? What do RGS say about that kind of thing, as part of your consultations?

So glad that those who are interested are having their questions answered and not just told 'Rah rah'. I guess the difficulty is that the school cannot guarantee what future numbers will be and that is the issue that makes it a risk for parents, not just in terms of it it might face closure again, but I. Terms of the implications of that for the whole school experience their child will have.

Anyway, good luck....and please keep updating us on here. We want to understand better.

Tired, I can see what you mean about time being important. On one hand, announcing a plan sooner, gives people thinking about 2014 entry (or deciding to stay at Dunottar) more time to do it.

However, don't be rushed into a speedy announcement/deal, but make sure it is REALLY right first. Would be awful to look back again and see rash decisions were made.
And is it even possible for anything to be decided before the end of the consultation. Doesn't the 2 month thing need to remain open in case anyone else has ideas?

That's great if there is an educational school group willing to take it on, however the naivity of ByeBye et al makes me rather uncomfortable.

If Dunottar is 'saved' in this way, what exactly from the current Dunottar model do parents think will still exist at the end of the process?

• all girls school? No - that has already been dismissed apparently

• small, cosy, nurturing environment? No, because we know that it's precisely because of the 'smallness' that Dunottar has failed and cannot continue..

• 'local family atmosphere' - unlikely, since any big educational group will want to 'stamp' its success model onto a new (costly) investment and replace and bring in some of its own 'heavy-hitting' teaching staff and leaders

And it would seem that UL (Aka UCST) is one very big and powerful (some say too powerful...) group see www.theguardian.com/education/2008/may/13/schools.newschools

And for those who are making veiled accusations of asset-stripping, then be careful what you wish for... ("out of the pan, into the fire as they say")

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20669621

Perhaps they plan to turn it into a state academy... that seems to be their heartland?

Interestingly, Caterham only became 'linked' to UL through a merger with another school, and seems to be at great pains to play down the relationship on its website: www.caterhamschool.co.uk/about-caterham/organisation/

It's worth googling UL/ UCST - some interesting stuff about how it took over the controversial 'Emmanuel' creationist schools etc...

Different parents want different things (obvs!) so you are making assumptions that are not about issues for me personally, and from what I understand from lots of other parents keen to stay:

• girls-only the survey results show this is a game changer for only 7% of current parents
• like nurturing... never wanted it as "cosy and small" as it has become, so happy for it to grow
• 'local family atmosphere' well, hmm, not words I'd use - and having spoken to a few people with kids at other UL schools, there doesn't seem to be a UL "way" or heavy-hitting teachers dropped from a great height.

It really is perspective. And maybe my glasses are a little rose tinted... better than looking through a glass darkly in my view. Our feet are on the ground - believe me... and yet, sometimes you half to trust that there are good people in the world as well as the less good.

Tired - yes, that's fair, that not everyone may want the same thing.
However I am genuinely worried that the DV folk, who understandably are tired, emotional and upset by the last few weeks are so desperate for a solution that they may repeat the mistake of 12-18 months ago, and assume that this is the 'perfect solution' without REALLY finding out what it means for the future of the school and putting the appropriate safeguards in place.

UL's management of a lot of academy schools has been highly criticised.
What guarantees exactly are they offering, over what time frame?

As has been said before, Dunottar is sitting on a valuable piece of real estate which I imagine any school group would be happy to take off their hands in return for a few hollow promises!

As a relatively objective observer in all this, it does seem that RGS has been labelled as the 'enemy' and UL the 'white knight' charging in to save the school. However I wonder whether UL might not end up being a more evil villain in disguise .

Well, that's all very true... and the next few weeks will tell. If DV has any sway at all (and I'm not sure how much it does have when the chips are down) we have a list of areas of concern and items we'd want comfort on.
We're not all punch drunk, don't worry

UL has Guildford High under its wings, the Sunday Times Independent School of the Year 2013.

Must be doing something right.

Tired, you sound pretty sensible.

I guess some of those parents meetings are pretty difficult though. People are understandably emotional and want a solution. As some posters on here have shown, they jump on anything sounding a bit positive, without really thinking it through. Must be a bit hard to keep that kind of thing under control! Some posters here seem more focused on blaming RGS than anything more constructive. For some of them it seems they'd rather anyone else had control, regardless of whether that is better or not. It must be a big burden on the DV committee to get it right. I don't envy them, because no doubt whatever they suggest, they will be criticised by some, either now or later.
I guess for Dunottar to continue requires a group from outside. It maybe RGS can be persuaded it is viable (might that still be best option....or is it impossible for some parents to even contemplate that) and if it isn't them, it's someone else. Dunottar will no longer be in charge of its own destiny, as it was previously whatever happens. I hope there's a group out there who have the same vision as current parents and prospective ones.
Best of luck with it.

"pretty sensible"? you are too kind, Ms Wombat!!

I agree, Tiredanddetermined, your comments are very helpful and make a lot of sense, it's great to finally hear a balanced and sensible voice.

Tiredanddetermined thank you.

Sorry if I seemed emotional in my post.

I know that harping back to last year doesn't help the here and now, but it is good to hear what is being done to try and save the school.

I know you are, but please proceed with caution. UL maybe the knight in shining armour at the moment but I know that there was a huge deal of faith put in Rgs which didn't materialise in any shape or form. I would hate to think that in another 12 or 24 months the situation is the same just with another group who promised to preserve dunottar, the ethos and the aims of the school and teachers.

The girls and the staff have been to hell and back now twice, and I would hate for it to happen again especially given the hard work you are all doing now.

Nicely said wholenewwomen, thank you!

I have been lurking on this thread for a while. I have friends with children at Dunottar, RGS & Caterham.

I really feel for the D girls and their parents, and have been impressed by the dynamism in DV. It is a shame that this sort of enthusiasm and drive wasn't mustered a long time ago: the previous trustees and (perhaps) management team may have a lot to answer for. OTOH I can understand their not wanting to cause a panic, and a flurry of leavers, such as has happened now. I also can't understand why a school that seems to add such value hasn't been valued generally as it should be.

It is all too easy for a school to boost its results by getting in a lot of outside 6th formers, and preventing kids who likely to fail from sitting exams, and dreadful that those schools are seen as 'good' schools rather than ones that cherish and nurture the children/young people.

However I do agree with some posters upthread that I would be wary of UL. From what I can gather, it is very much a business, and D would be joining in with it from a very weak position, unlike, say Caterham. I am really surprised that only 7% say that the fact D is a girls school is important to them; really surprised. (Did I understand the statistic quoted above?). Surely single-sex is its USP around here.

I am also surprised that people seem to be so keen to see D continue that they seem to be taking seriously all sorts of changes. I really cannot see its ethos surviving in any way, and wonder why precisely people are so keen to see it 'survive', apparently at any cost. It may be like seeing a much loved relation on a life support machine for years...

As a survey responder and speaking to other parents at my dc school, all-girls is seen as minimally important I think (also surprises me) I personally would prefer co ed. I have spoken to the people I know with girls there now and they arent too concerned about it becoming co ed (all be it amongst the general concern about the whole thing). Most of the people I know who might be interested in the school in the future have boys, to be fair, but even people with girls don't seem too devastated about the idea of it going co-ed. I imagine there are people there who chose it for that reason but many I have spoken to say it was the ethos and the school being the right place for their daughters that was prime importance.

Agreed Forago. I certainly didn't put my daughter there because it was girls only, we simply loved it . Going co-ed doesn't bother me in the slightest, we are still at Dunottar . Prime importance as you say.

I am really interested to know a number of you aren't bothered about Dunottar not being girls only. I had just assumed (seemingly wrongly) that bei g single sex was an important feature of it for many.

It's such a shame that going co od wasn't explored a few years ago. Lots of schools have successfully gone co ed, but have usually done it from a position of relative strength in numbers which helps.

Co ed could be the way forward. I think we are almost talking about a brand new school though, rather than the Dunottar which is known and loved, as someone upthread mentioned. You are looking at a new management company, or whatever UL is, which will certainly make a big impact in all kinds of ways. Boys in themselves will make the school a very different place. There will certainly need to be a good number of male teachers hired, for a co ed secondary school to work...that makes it different too. Might there be a new head or other Senior managers....makes a difference and seems highly likely. None of this is necessarily bad, but means that Dunottar will be very very different....I would call it a new school......which might be good, because old Dunottar didn't manage to attract enough people.

If it can get over the early years and attract the rise in numbers required, it might work. I still see those early years as problematic though. You are aski g people to commit their boys and girls to an untested model, in that no one will have been through the new Dunottar to know its strengths and weaknesses, especially unknown for boys,.....and all that, with the recent history of difficulties. It's a big ask. New state schools often work and fill up, because people have few choices. When it comes to private education, people do have choice, and they want tried and tested in my experience.

This is why I see Dunottars future as problematic. It can't carry on as it was, which is a shame, because many people loved it as it was (although the love of it wasn't enough to give sufficient numbers). The changes which are necessary for survival, make it a very different school, so it then becomes untried and untested. Catch 22 for Dunottar. I hope it is possible to deal with that. The one thing I could see enabling them to get people to take that risk on the unknown, is fees substantially below the competition. I think that to attract the numbers needed early on, fees would need to be less than 10K. I have no idea if it is possible to run a school round her with that level of fees, especially if it needs a lot of investment in all kind of areas.

Boom there it goes again ! Like us parents don't know about numbers, male teachers being included, maybe different head - we do know ! Thing is survey says…… we like the idea of it going co-ed, if parents don't then there are other options! Brand new school or whatever its Dunottar! oops sorry I mentioned that name again…. so funny. Think we get it as a new management you never know may be new governors as well!! hahah. Please come and have a look round …. lol. Dunottar is Dunottar - sorry Im apologising again for the School WE LOVE. lol When I needed a neighbour were you there…were you there. Still smiling…..

I would like to come and look round, thanks. I have never been to Dunottar. The trouble is, looking round now wouldn't tell me much, because what might be there in September or whenever, isn't what is there now.

Bye,Bye, you are clearly loyal to Dunottar. Fantastic. I'm sure they appreciate your support. My posts are not directed especially to you or other parents, but just to the community as a whole on this forum, who are interested in how the situation is evolving. I am genuinely interested to see how Dunottar can get over the hurdles of current low numbers and then that issues within a new setting. I know you and many others there already support it wholeheartedly, but the big question now is how many newcomers will join you in the early years isn't it. I can't believe that these questions never occur to you at all.

Being a 'neighbour' isn't just unquestioningly supporting Dunottar and every single new idea that is mooted. It involves asking the important questions which were not asked early enough, to avoid this situation having arisen. It involves asking questions which potential parents need answers to, before they can decide if a new Dunottar is the school for their child.

The problem with the survey is that it was written by marketing people to give the answers/ 'evidence' to support the move to co-ed. PR people do this all the time - decide what the outcome they want is, and then engineer the questions and results to suit.

I filled in the survey, and my answers would likely 'support' the move of Dunottar to co-ed, and are now being paraded as part of the 'evidence' for the new business case.

e.g.
Do I support the principle of co-education in Reigate? YES
Would I find the idea of Dunottar admitting boys attractive? YES
Do I support the idea of a choice of schools? YES (who doesn't?)

How would Dunottar moving to a co-educational model change the likelihood of me choosing it as an option for my child? MAKE IT MORE LIKELY (as if I have a boy it wouldn't have been an option before - doh!)

However nowhere does it actually ask or quantify HOW LIKELY I am to really consider it as an option. Whether I would seriously consider it, and stump up the fees for what, as wombat points out, will be a new school with an unproven track record.

And the answer to that question is 'not at all likely' - at least not in the next 4-5 years.

I wonder how many other people would be in the same situation?

Was the idea of co-ed equally favourably met by current parents as well as prospective? How far is the catchment now perceived to be from it and how many responders who would have the option of an alternative girls school nearby have stated that they'd consider it as a viable option, co-ed or single sex (thinking especially of those in Banstead/Chipstead/Coulsdon/Dorking)?

I thought that too Nikki: I tried to fill it in to show support, and so DV had a good spread of replies, but ultimately could not finish & submit it. I hope the DV isn't basing its decisions on that questionnaire's responses, because it didn't ask all the questions it should have done.