Dunottar/ Reigate Grammar - Merger, or what?

[quandry]

Got the letter today, and I have to say I don't really understand what is going on?
Is RGS bailing out Dunottar to save it going under?
I can't see the advantages for RGS at all?

Someone suggested that perhaps they'd make it co-ed, less academic school in the future (like a Box Hill in Reigate?) and share facilities more? (Sports fields closer than Hartswood?)

Bye bye.

You keep saying all will be revealed on 13th, is then when the final decision is made or when the plan is revealed?

The coffee shops of Reigate will be full of the speculation tomorrow. I know it has been said that it's confidential but as tombaker has said how has everyone who was at yesterday's meeting been made to keep it all confidential?

I think dunottarvoice are missing a trick by not putting at least a holding statement out. The void will be filled by rumours and speculation.

Also shocked bunny message at 13.25 makes a lot of sense too, very relevant points made and then all she encurred was rudeness back. Perhaps because it touched a nerve.
In my observation of this forum and the DV website, any probing questions from the community or future prospective parents seem to go unanswered or shot down in a hugely defensive manner. I find it hard to understand why the DV group are not welcoming in as many people as they can with wide open arms, after all the only thing that will keep the school open is future numbers of pupils. It seems very short sighted of them to act in this way, as a very closed in dunottar community, the future of the school is not with the current pupils and parents, it is imperative to look at the future. Maybe that's why the school is in the predicament that it is.
I have already read a few comments from future prospective parents that they have actually been put off the school due to the rudeness and the way this whole process has been dealt with.

Hi there
At the open meeting yesterday - and it was open so it is not a secret - we heard that United Learning (an impressive charity that runs lots of schools) has looked at Dunottar and would like to help it to succeed. This is brilliant. It really validates all the hard work.
They've said they will invest money. And they will support the school until it recovers. Their commitment is that any child entering in Sept14 will have a place at Dunottar until they complete A levels. That would tide us over and give a chance to see if the school really can work.
The school would have boys. In Sept14 boys could join in Y7, Y9 or L6. We saw info from the surveys that says it is wanted. Something like 700 prospective parents answered the survey!
DV is promoting this solution to the board. It is their job to decide what happens next, and according to last week's papers they've other options on the table too. The deadline for the consultation is 13 March. It is my keen hope that the board sees that we have a way out now and they just let us get on with reviving the school without having to wait until 13 March to do so. Either they accept the United approach or they already have something better - whichever way it is looking good.
Interesting times.

Caterham School is part of United Learning, so that is indeed interesting news.

Any move to recruit boys for September would have to be very swift though with most offers due out this week? Certainly people need to move quickly to secure pupils for September, but Cognita certainly moved speedily when they bought Commonweal, so it can be done.

Hopefully then the fighting fund won't be needed. Is the head definitely behind the proposal?

Well that is interesting and definitely something that would add another dimension to Reigate. As lady muck says caterham are part of United learning.

Wonder if the head is behind it or wether UL will changed the leadership as this seems to have been part of the problem.

Thank you for removing all the smoke screens from Saturdays meeting and giving as much info as possible tired and determined. Some sense at last!!

The head is very supportive. The staff I spoke to are very excited.
To be fair, I think people to didn't share the info from Saturday were probably not clear that they could, so were being cautious rather than actively unhelpful.

Caterham school and Guildford High are part of this. They are huge and very very successful . Tired and determined thank you and I think we all are - just that. I believe UL have 40 ish schools under their belt, don't quote me on that though. Being careful on social media is paramount . Come on Dunottar! We must remember negotiations are still in hand . Must keep the fundraising up and business as usual at the school!

Sounds like some good news. Thankyou to Tired for filling us in.
Does this mean United would be willing to guarantee Dunottar in next couple of years, when numbers will no doubt be very low? However great the plan, the numbers of boys that can be attracted for Sept (and indeed girls) must be low, due to the late timing issue and also the fact some Dunottar current girls have left and may well still do.
I would be very interested to see the projected numbers of pupils for 2014 and onward for the next 5 years.
I can see that a guarantee that those entering in 2014 will be guaranteed an ed until the end of A levels. That is reassuring to a point. People want a guaranteed ed but they want it in a cohort of sufficient numbers, which allows lessons to have enough pupils for debate, a wide range of subject choices, to field sports teams and for social reasons. Of course United cannot guarantee that.

If the numbers do rise in the next few years (assuming this plan is acceptable to those it needs to be acceptable too) I think more people would consider Dunottar. The problem is attracting people (and not just words of support, but deposit cheques) now and in the early years, when numbers are already so low. It's the turning of the downward trend that is so difficult.

I agree choc wombat, I would consider D for my child but I'm looking at entry in year 7 in 2015, but I would like to see at least 4 or 5 years of growth and results before I would even commit to going there.
I would not be prepared to take a gamble on my child's education. I do wonder how many people would.

agree luckypup , it would take a very brave parent to take such a risk now. Also with boys entering in year 9/12 there are certain expectations regarding facilities and a credible number of male members of staff, in particular for sports or older age groups. I know there is the potential space but getting the right people in place takes time and an enormous cultural shift from where the school is now.

As a Dunottar parent I've been watching this thread with interest since last year and can't believe how negative some of the posters are. Even when we now have really good news after all the upset (and I'm not sure some of you out there can comprehend just how devastating and sad this process has been for parents and their daughters), you are still sat there spouting stuff about viability and numbers still being low. UL deal with these situations all the time with great speed and the point is they know a great school when they see one and are prepared to back us unlike other people who would rather see the school die.

I don't want the school to die. Far from it.
But do Dunottar parent realise that the kind of queries about numbers that people raise here are exactly the questions prospective parents will be asking?
No one is going to sign up to Dunottar just on the basis that DV says that loads of people like Dunottar, or that current parents love it. The whole point is that too few have loved it enough and signed up in the past.
The intention isn't to undermine, but to raise very genuine questions, which simply cannot be avoided. Positive, positive, positive does not work. You are asking people to commit lots of money and their child's academic future to Dunottar. Those parents NEED to ask the big questions. Wouldn't you? Pretending people don't need to ask those questions doesn't help. Of course current Dunottar parents are aski g those questions too and perfectly correctly. It is not a sign of disloyalty to the school at a point such as this, to wonder if Dunottar will continue to be the right place for their child.
It is good news that United are interested. It doesn't mean people won't still have questions though.

Well said Gogirl1. You have summed it up completely. Still lots of negative comments . Even when news is good. Can only think of one word really. Jealous. COme on people we need your support - everyone. REIGATE needs choice. I would hate to be looking round just RSM for infant and juniors for private and RGS. Didn't like RSM one bit all them years ago. You need choice. I sincerely hope people haven't jumped too quickly already and kick themselves. Can see that happening by a long stretch. Good luck Gogirl1 right behind you. ….

You are still assuming all the "negative" ie questioning posts are from RGS parents, why ? You are expecting complete strangers to commit 84k+ to join the school, purely on the back of your enthusiasm - do they not have the right to make a decision based on hard facts and a long term plan ?

Lets hope there is CHOICE when your child/children do not for one reason or another get into the only senior school which is private in Reigate. You may have to venture out quite a bit……No looking back , keep moving forward with or without negative comments. We've come this far haven't we. Girls are studying so hard at school it really is business as usual. They are the ones really experiencing it and I take my hat off to all those girls . Keep doing what you are good at Dunottar. Wouldn't change all those years for anything. Not one. Says a lot. Can only wait and see but please give us a chance . Unless you are in this position directly you have no idea …..

Can only wait and see but please give us a chance . Unless you are in this position directly you have no idea ….. no I wouldn't want to be in this position, and have very sympathy for the situation, but equally nor would I knowingly risk putting my children into this as a potential scenario. DV want the ears and money of those outside the community but perhaps not such an open dialogue and debate, at least that is what is coming across on this thread. Bear in mind many Reigate residents already travel beyond the town itself for schooling, from nursery onwards.

Unbelievable.

is that to me ? I hope you find a positive resolution for your girls but unless you are prepared to listen to alternative views there is little point canvassing the wider community including MN. To be fair I'm not sure the attitude expressed on this thread is necessarily representative of DV in general.

ByeBye, people DO have sympathy for the girls and parents and staff at Dunottar. It is a horrible situation to be in.

We also understand you want the school to stay open.

Do you see anyone who asks a question as undermining the campaign? Why? All this 'Go Dunottar' stuff is fine, but are you saying you don't want to engage with the community? As LIZS says, is it not reasonable for a prospective parent who wants to do the best for their child when choosing a school, to ask these questions.
If YOU were looking round Dunottar as a prospective parent now, what would you want to and need to know before deciding? Would simply 'Dunottar is great' be enough for you?

I'm sure most Dunottar parents realise prospective parents have to ask these questions. They are not a criticism of Dunottar or the work of the DV. I could be a prospective parent in a few years time. If I came round the school in 3 or 4 years time and said 'There were some issues a couple of years ago, what have numbers been like over the last 4 years' would you consider that an improper question?

byebye - what is unbelievable?

I have stayed off this thread until now as it has been too emotional for me. However your last couple of comments has made me seethe.

Everyone has the right to question what is happening. Others on the thread have made very valid points and questions, but according to you everyone has to give Dunottar a chance and wait and see, and they can't possibly understand what a trauma you are all going through.

I do understand completely. I WAS THERE THIS TIME LAST YEAR in the juniors, and not one person that is now in Dunottar Voice tried to help at this point, in fact as they were all in the senior school they just said 'its a shame but ok if it protects our daughters in the senior school we will sacrifice the juniors'.

Come back to bite a bit now hasn't it?

The very concern that is at the heart of this battle now, is 'what was in it for RGS?' and was raised again and again but no-one really wanted to fight it, as it only affected the little ones in the junior school.

Sad, but true, it appears this is a case of as long as it didn't affect me directly, I'm not bothered.

This situation could have been avoided.

I always wanted my daughter to come back to the wonderful school that is Dunottar. However, I cannot and will not let her education and emotions be damaged any more by going through this trauma again.

Absolutely UL being involved is a good positive thing. Is it going to be the place for my daughter? Depends.

Depends on numbers in the school -school is more than exams it is about the social and extra-curricular development. There is a minimum number for teams, productions etc to happen.
Depends on the mix of boy/girl to allow this to happen.
Depends on the investment in the school to provide further facilities and enhancements to the curriculum.

She will not be in the group that could start in 2014 and be guaranteed education until A level, so she may not be able to complete her education at Dunottar if the numbers do not sustain the school. UL will support for 7 years, but ultimately they are a business and there has to a cut off point when the numbers mean it is not sustainable.

The enthusiasm is clearly there, but enthusiasm is not enough.

The questions for prospective parents need to be asked and they need to be answered.

No-where in the questionings has there been an underlying aspect of wishing Dunottar to fail. People are asking to understand and to be able to make decisions.

Unfortunately it appears that if any potential queries are asked that is seen to be a negative.

I think you need to get real - if you want RGS to hand the school back to Dunottar (which in itself will be a battle why will they give up £8+m of property to a what will be a competitor school), you need to have as many prospective parents on board as possible which means not dismissing the questions and certainly not being rude to them as it appears is the approach that is being taken.

It has to be also considered that for boys to start in 2014 would be a gigantic leap of faith for parents paying a lot of money. Dunottar hasn't done boys before (I know the school very well through work colleagues) and the entry exams for other schools have been done. Reigate Grammar has a huge area (we are over the border in West Sussex and they offer buses) and parents in Reigate itself would have had plans in place for their boys long before this announcement. Its not being negative about Dunottar and the campaign for their future, or the hope of arescue plan from a company that owns many schools. Its knowing that as a parent I wouldn't put a 13 yr old boy into a school with no previous experience and therefore no record of exam success. At prep school level, parents might be willing to take such a gamble, but not at senior level where success has to be partly measured by GCSE and A level results. Also, parents in that area have never relied solely on Reigate Grammar and wouldn't necessaryily turn to the nearest new alternative just because it happens to be there.

People are getting very emotional here, with lots of accusations flying about. Could we just step back and remind ourselves what we're talking about?

1. Last year, RGS effectively took over Dunottar. Now most of Dunottar Board are RGS appointees. If Dunottar closes for whatever reason (and it doesn't have to be insolvent), RGS will get the assets, probably worth £8-10m, although they would have to be used for educational purposes. Parents were NOT told about the situation regarding the assets. Were the Dunottars stupid? Absolutely. But on the flip side, did RGS act in a way in line with their stated values of honesty, fairness and integrity?

2. When the Chairman of RGS trustees was asked what RGS would get out of the Dunottar takeover, he said "a bigger asset base". That should have flagged up warning signs with Dunottar parents, but unfortunately it didn't.

3. Dunottar parents thought that RGS would be helping them, but RGS has not put any money at all into Dunottar at all. In fact since the RGS takeover, Dunottar senior school numbers have dropped faster than before. Junior school number have also dropped a bit, because it's been closed.

4. Last September the Chairman of Dunottar Trustees (also the Chairman of RGS trustees) rocked up at the Dunottar prizegiving and gave a pessimistic speech about Dunottar's future, which caused several people to leave the school. Today (Feb 10) he's doing it again in an article in the Surrey Mirror, giving out pessimistic estimates about how many people are likely to leave the school. Is this the action of someone who, as a governor, is legally bound to promote the success of the school? I leave it to you to decide that. I don't know what the Dunottar Voice estimates are, but I presume that United Learning wouldn't be making a bid for running the school if they thought it wasn't vable. These guys run 45 acadamies and independent schools, and have been going for over 100 years.

5. The Chairman of RGS and Dunottar Trustees spent around 25 years of his life at a company called 3i. This company is a multinational private equity and venture capital company. Some people have in the past have described it in a different way - asset strippers. Which of course is completely and utterly different to the situation with RGS and Dunottar.

In short, it could be argued by a casual observer that RGS took over Dunottar with the express intention of running it down, closing it, and snaffling the assets to use for RGS. This is of course totally unfair to Mr Walker and the trustees of Dunottar and RGS, who are working tirelessly to save Dunottar as we speak. Hurrah!

But if you look upthread, it is clear RGS never promised to support Dunottar into the long run. They promised a year of a financial guarantee, so it wouldn't have to close in summer 2013. Surely they have delivered that. Perhaps Dunottar parents hoped more was bei g offered, but there seems to be no evidence for that, only wishful thinking.

All of that is irrelevant though, isn't it, to what the numbers will be in future, which is the key point. Dunottar is in the position regarding numbers they are in now. They went to RGS and accepted what it offered and any consequences of that.

When new prospective parents look at Dunottar and decide if to risk it and send their daughter or their son there, the key issue in their mind will not be 'What was the role of RGS in what happened' it will be 'is this school secure enough and big enough and with a proven track record in educating my son or daughter to provide the education I want for my son or daughter into the long term'.

Surely, that will be the question prospective parents will ask. The rest is pretty much irrelevant. They might want to know numbers from the past, and to be convinced about future numbers more at Dunottar than elsewhere, due to what has been happening, but I doubt they will be focusing on RGS, if they are no longer involved.

did anyone see the article in the times today about a girls school in Reading that was suffering declining numbers year on year but have now turned it around by going co-ed and dropping fees by a fifth? Food for thought?

As the parent of a y5 boy at a prep school in the area, the thing that would make me consider it for y7 entry, should it be available and should at least a years track record with boys have been established, is if it was good value for money. I suspect there are a lot if people out there wavering on private secondary that would feel the same way. I think it would take a big leap of faith (or discount!) to send a bit there this September though?! Brothers of existing girls maybe?

Boy not bit!