Dunottar/ Reigate Grammar - Merger, or what?

[quandry]

Got the letter today, and I have to say I don't really understand what is going on?
Is RGS bailing out Dunottar to save it going under?
I can't see the advantages for RGS at all?

Someone suggested that perhaps they'd make it co-ed, less academic school in the future (like a Box Hill in Reigate?) and share facilities more? (Sports fields closer than Hartswood?)

Lady M, I don't actually know the make up. If it were up to me there would be about 40%parents 40% teachers 10% legal 10% marketing, but it's not up to me.

tackyj - a business plan would be basedrequires strong demand in the future.

Such huge support but low numbers.

How would a business plan demonstrate secure demand for 5 years time when even such strong support that the school currently enjoys from the community(demonstrated by the PAG) has resulted in such low numbers? It would be pointless getting surveys etc as these will show lots of support but ensure no commitment.

If the next four or five years will result in a loss and there is a reasonable chance of it continuing to lose money in the future then I wouldn't trust my children to Dunottar as it is unlikely to make it to that point as no Trustees could agree to all the assets going to the wall.

LJE. This is such a valid point and impossible for me to answer properly on a public forum. Most of the overwhelming positive postings come from girls that have been there some years or have left. One has to have confidence and trust in the head and leadership team and the enthusiasm and ability of the teachers that present their subjects at open days. You will have a gut feeling if the school feels right for your child. staff come and go at all schools but it is possible to preserve the same ethos and feel of the school.
When the plan is presented I think most people will able to judge if it is sound.

To be viable, the school will have to show current numbers are sufficient, because as you say, just levels of support from the community do not equate to people signing their kids up and paying the fees, which is what is needed.
I look forward to those current numbers and the plan you mention being released because they will be very telling. No one really seems to be mentioning current numbers or exactly how many have left recently. I suspect that is because those numbers do not show Dunottar as a viable long term proposition, which of course does not support what DV wants to express.
So DV can continue to tell us of the love people have for the school and post messages of support. But we look forward to hearing the more concrete and relevant figures of numbers in the school. I wonder how long we will wait for those?!

I don't say these things because I want Dunottar to close. Far from it. But people need to realise that the fact they love the school is not enough to keep it open. Only numbers are.

Do you think that the PAG would put forward a business plan that did not address your very valid points together with the solution to other complex and technical issues.

A plan B solution could be that some of the site could be developed, thus
providing substantial funding for Dunottar school. This has been done elsewhere.

Yes it could. That means the assets are being run down, suggesting the numbers alone are not enough for it to continue. The long term result of that is still closure, but a long lingering one.
Numbers are the bottom line. Plans to allow the school to continue without sufficient numbers can only delay closure.
Perhaps they will revel that the numbers are healthy and people have not left. That is what you need to hope for, being the best route to survival.

The numbers will not be great but the money gained could fund the school for many years until the numbers increase so it can fund itself. Very little would have to be sold in reality, non of the teaching buildings at all.

A school which needs to subsidise itself for many years as you describe, until numbers rise (which may not happen anyway)is not viable.
I cannot believe the DV would propose such a thing. And there is surely no chance of the Governors accepting such an idea.

This is just my speculation as I hope plan A when it is presented will be supported. How do you know what the trustees will or no accept? I don't. There are many endowed schools that do not just rely on fee income.

That is really interesting TacJac.
What schools have you heard of that sell land to keep going? If some have done that before and survived after the sale proceeds have been spent then they will be really good supporting examples for the PAG.
Which schools are you referring to?

I think that there were two in the last 10 years but need to check details, I will
try and get back to you . Not so long ago Parsons Mead school in Ashstead were struggling, got "supported" ie got taken over by a dominant school , Parsons Mead was closed , the land sold for housing and the dominant school got the money. This outrageous example is well known to the friends of Dunottar, they do not want to see this repeated.

I can see that Dunottar parents don't like the idea of another school benefitting from their closure. That is a natural response. Some people's whole focus though seems to have gone into looking to blame someone.
Regardless of whether anyone else is to blame (and I've said up thread that the causes are much more long term than the involvement of any other schools) preventing or allowing the land to transfer to RGS will not determine whether the numbers are big enough for survival. The numbers need to be large enough.
Those who are keen to break the merger with RGS, even if that happens, the numbers will still be the key issue.

Do you think parents would rather sell off land so that Dunottar can keep going for say 3 or 5 years and then close, or accept closure is inevitable and close this year? I guess some would say struggle on and sell the land (to stop RGS getting it....seems to be a big focus, rather than saving the school for a few) whilst others would say you have to know when enough is enough. There is a time to quit. And quitting at the right time is the brave and sensible thing to do isn't it. Continuing with a battle which cannot be won isn't good for the girls concerned. It may not be time to quit yet, but I'd be interested to know when people think that actually is. What kind of numbers mean the towel has to be thrown in?

Tackie, please do let me know if you remember the schools who run at a loss and subsidise it by selling assets. Up the thread you said there were many.
I ask because it surprised me that there were many who sold land to keep going and ran at a loss for many years.
there may be some with big invested endowments like Whitgift but that is, of course, totally different as Dunnottar doesn't seem to have an endowment oter than the buildings and land which are not the original ones for the school but where the school moved in the 40's (I think).

It seems to be an odd route forward.

Dv suggest that they are astonished that Dunnottar was seen as not viable by the governors. They are in danger of looking like deliberate spin doctors if over three weeks they admit that it may need to sell land to stay afloat.

It really does need the plan A showing that they can keep and build from the current 203 they say are at the school now.

Defeatist or not!

We keep going around in circles on this one and I am not interested in perpetuating this as you seem to be untroubled if RGS took the site, well it now looks almost certain it will not happen.
I have seen schools transformed very quickly and numbers increase dramatically after strong and innovative leadership has been put in place. You are right in that numbers are key.
Dunottar has so much going for it and once re- launched will astound its critics. We now know that there is a huge demand from potential parents to send theirs girls to the school IF they have the confidence in the school. I can assure you they will get that in "spades".
Do not be defeatist, remember David and Goliath and enjoy!
This is my last word on the topic but probably not yours.

TJ

"please do let me know if you remember the schools who run at a loss and subsidise it by selling assets. Up the thread you said there were many.
I ask because it surprised me that there were many who sold land to keep going and ran at a loss for many years."

I think RSM were in this position about 10 years ago. Sale of land for development and affiliation to RGS pulled them out of the mire as did the closure of Doods Brow. However the land sale proposal was in the pipeline before the merger primarily to fund investment in new facilities and refurbishment, which is something I felt D was in serious need of when I viewed 3+ years ago. Too many temporary structures past their sell-by date, although those may have been more on the junior site.

Nice to see some people on hear remember RSM in the poo some time back. mmmm. Not sure why chocolate wombat so negative all the time. Dunottar is making serious progress here and maybe once its turned co-ed … yes RSM will have competition something RGS and RSM are desperate to avoid. Watch this space … Oh and another thing Chocolate wombat how do you feel watching RGS slipping in the league tables yet again. You are not the best school in Surrey sorry but CATERHAM is and you will always be second place to them…!! ouch…. The only attraction to RSM now is that most kids AUTOMATICALLY get into RGS and the poor lasses who don't, get the dreaded phone call …..Everyone should sit the exam or your standards will drop. Yes most comments are from parents of Dunottar not quite sure why your so desperate to put negative comments on here all the time…

Cant believe the kids have tutors as well at the Grammar dear oh dear….. desperate to keep up….. very sad indeed.

OMG ^ so bitchy, absolutely not necessary

The discussion is about the viability of Dunottar. That is all I have commented on. I don't know about RGS in league tables, or Caterham, or Tutoring anywhere. And I have said comments about RGS are a smokescreen and missing the point about numbers.
Some people on here are very emotional about this. I understand emotions run high when your daughters education is at stake. I take a dispassionate view which I am able to, because I am not emotionally involved. There is space on a forum like this for people to comment who are not directly involved in it all....but some people don't like to be pointed in the direction of the key issue of numbers. This is however what will determine the outcome. Nuff said.

Am confused as to what purpose this inter-school hostility is benefitting?You need people onside not alienated. If anything it portrays DV as inward-looking and desperate , which are not characteristics I recognise in those involved I know. Be careful what you wish for though, even if the D site and name is salvaged it will not stay the same school, with or without RGS input.

I'm not sure if selling off land is practical, from what I remember a lot of it is heavily sloped wood that goes down to the playing field (remembers the climb back up when I attended fixtures there!), so impractical to build on. The playing field is surrounded so don't see how you'd get access to it and at the top of the hill is the school buildings. Parents judge schools on facilities, building on playing fields etc isn't going to create a particularly strong impression. Dunottar has to get the numbers up from 186 as they are now quoting. With a strong management team maybe they can do it.

The bitchy comments up thread are completely uncalled for, it does not help your cause in any way. I don't think that RGS and Dunottar see each other as rivals they are completely different schools.

I don't know why this is even in any way a thread to attack RGS OR Dunottar. It isn't either and doing so doesn't make anyone lok or feel good.

There are so many rumours around that it is really difficult for parents, teachers and girls to make choices. It seems in the Dunottar campaigners interests to encourage as much clarity as possible. There hasn't even been a proposal made by the Dunottar Voice group but they have only had a couple of weeks so one will come out soon enough. It may even be that their proposal has 5 elements to it?

I find the current situation very sad and also very interesting. I didn't think, for instance, that RSM sold land 10 years ago. Which land was that? I thought that RGS pumped in milions but I didn't realise there was any land sale. It is entirely possible because it is a long time ago. Interesting.

The RSM recovery may well be a blue print for a Dunottar recovery although the bridges may have been burnt with RGS now! The Dunottar Voice group may well have found a similar sponsor willing to make a long term comitment to get them through approx 4 or 5 years (?) of loss and to offer some capital investment in the mean time to give the confidence 'bounce' that will help recruitment. If they have then there will inevitably be a time of some confidential negotiations so watch this space..... Would GSA or GDST be ableto help with this? I wonder if that is why the Dunottar Voice group seemed to rule out single sex last weekend but have now seemed to warm to girls' only once agaon.Maybe the sponsor they have found likes single sex?
I admit that this is a totally speculative comment, not intended to offend anyone or be anti RGS or anti Dunottar or whatever - I think there are probably fewer conspiracies that our imaginations conjur up. I suspect most people are just looking to discuss and understand. Having an opinion shouldn't be seen as point scoring.(although I wil agree that 11Jackie seems to have overstepped the mark a lot as her comments seem only designed to cause hurt).

Good luck everyone on here at all schools. Heres to the future!

I can't believe the blatant nastiness on here, and the general RGS-bashing going on in all the DV communications. So I thought the DV team might be interested to know that their nasty tactics have had a distinctly negative impact in this household.
Are the DV team so naive as to ignore the fact that lots of parents could have children in both schools?
Our son is at RGS and he/ we really couldn't be happier - it is an absolutely amazing school with fabulous teachers and hard-working, talented children.
However for a number of reasons we were planning on our daughter joining Dunottar in Sept 2014 as we felt that the non-selective all girl environment might suit her better.
However after seeing how existing Dunottar parents are behaving on here, and as part of this so-called action group, I have to say I want nothing to do with these people and we now have absolutely no intention of sending our daughter to this school ( if it still exists by then anyway!)

I'm sick of getting these one-sided pieces of propaganda from DV ( press releases, open letters), and the way they are trying to twist the facts to suit their version of events and turn the local community against RGS. Don't be fooled folks - these people are underhand and not to be trusted - a bunch of spin doctors.

RGS isn't trying to 'close down the competition' because Dunottar isn't the competition, and RGS could fill it's school many times over it is now so over-subscribed.

Anyway, well done DV, because as of this week your potential numbers will have dropped by at least one more child....and hopefully more once I've talked to more of my friends.