Dunottar/ Reigate Grammar - Merger, or what?

[quandry]

Got the letter today, and I have to say I don't really understand what is going on?
Is RGS bailing out Dunottar to save it going under?
I can't see the advantages for RGS at all?

Someone suggested that perhaps they'd make it co-ed, less academic school in the future (like a Box Hill in Reigate?) and share facilities more? (Sports fields closer than Hartswood?)

This forum comprises teachers, parents, past students, possibly past and current trustees, some existing parents and potential parents from both schools as well as people that are interested in what has happened. The eventual outcome will not please everybody so the comments in some cases are less than kind. Any body can put a direct question to the Voice of Dunottar and they will get an answer, try it.

I thought it was only on the Dvoice website that all opinions had to be approved?

I have no smirk. I genuinely believe that Dunottar has provided an excellent education for girls and that it is a real shame that it got into this position.

But, with no smirk, I do not believe the claim that the school has a viable future. I hope this is an open enough forum that someone with different opinion to others can state it without sufering personal insult?

Dunottar Voice says it needs 200 (or preferably 250?) and confirmed on the radio, apparently, that there are only 186 today - there are more leaving each week. The only year groups where there are nearly enough girls to break even are those that are about to leave after exams. The future looks worse as the smallest year groups are in the 1st to 3rd form and many of those are seeking places at other schools. How can a 6th form with 8 (or even 18 or 28) in a year group provide the choice of exams, extra curricular or even just social experience anyone would want?

It looks like there wil be be a lot less than 150 students, by Sep 2014. Even if recruiting at 40 - 45 in a year group from Sep 2015 onwards, the small numbers in year 7, 8 and 9 now means it will take four or five years to get up to a break even number of 200 and it is very, very optimistic to anticipate recruitment nearly tripling by this time next year. No one will fund a school losing money year after year. Wouldn't new students need at least a guarantee that the school will not close for 5 years?

I bet lots of the teachers are applying for numerous jobs and I do not blame them for one moment. Some teachers have probably already got new jobs and resigned and, if so, parents are being kept in the dark. It would not help the Voice campaign to let news of resignations slip out. If teachers geta new job and resign over the coming weeks then it will be very hard to get quality teachers to join a school with such uncertainty hanging over it.

Are these perceptions even close to the truth?

It would be great if Dunottar Voice could correct my statements and say that there are more than 200 girls, that it is not true that the Headmistress is writing lots of references for children and for teachers seeking places elsewhere, it would be good if they could say that the school will break even this year.

These types of questions need to be answered rather than daily announcements about how great things are but not adressing the important doubts people have. If not then all the talk about 'new models' just seems like a smoke screen to hide the truth from the girls and their parents and to prevent them from leaving.

I feel that I am supposed to think that the Governors are crooks and that the Dunottar Voice Committee is beyond reproach but, whilst well meaning, maybe neither are able to save Dunottar?

None of this is a smirk but parents and girls need to know and I think it is wrong to hide this info from anxious families.

There is some debate with alternative views being expressed on Dunottar voice following the issue of their open letter so I don't think it's that censored but it's a free world (sort of) so I think people will continue to debate wherever they want.

Ok, in order to stop the unfounded speculation that all RGS wanted for "supporting" Dunottar was it's grade 2 listed building, 17 acres of prime land and lots of students they should just assign the school back to Dunottar. This would then lift the damaging cloud of suspicion that is not good for the school. I am sure Dunottar could return all that it received from RGS instantly.

Where would that leave Dunottar though? I thought the link up with RGS was a last ditch attempt to keep Dunottar open? What has changed, does Dunottar have sufficient resources to keep going, if it does then I don't understand why it went to RGS in the first place.

Bert 123

Where are you getting your information from? Are you sure the head is writing staff references? You seem so well informed.

I've just re-read the open letter on Dunottar voice, the RGS trustees gave a letter of comfort to the auditors of the Dunottar accounts. So effectively Dunottar purchased a guarantee from the RGS trustees that they would underwrite any shortfall in the next year. Instead of paying directly for this guarantee it appears that the property of the Dunottar trust was signed over instead. So RGS does appear to have given financial support in the form of underwriting the potential loss, like an insurance contract. Whether the risk of a shortfall was worth paying the "premium" that it did is debatable, with hindsight it doesn't look a good deal but what if there had been a substantial shortfall, that would have had to have come from somewhere.

Some of the board panicked,the chair I think was new to the job and they expected a decent run of support. If the decent thing was done and the school handed back it would be in control of it's own dynasty. I believe with hindsight none of the trustees would have been so gullible.
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Sorry destiny

Oh ok, I'm still not convinced how they move forward. Maybe they could raise funds against the property to provide the guarantee but I would have thought they would have thought of that in the first instance.

Absolutely whiteboard, and perhaps by selling some of it. If they can raise £1.500.000 this could support the school whilst it develops.

Surely Dunottar are still going to need RGS support to keep going through to 2015 though? Realistically any teacher who isn't on the verge of retirement would prefer to get a job elsewhere that wait out until the school shuts, so the only way that the current GCSE and A level classes can get through is via the RGS support?

Dunottar Voice seem to have admirable spirit, but have activated themselves at least a year too late. The reality is that they have little real power given that they are not the trustee body, and it isn't clear to me as an outsider as to where the head and bursar stand.

What would be interesting to know is whether at any time the school has been offered to one of the profit making school groups eg Cognita, Alpha Group etc, as they would be able to look at what alternatives there were quite quickly.

Tackyjackie- I think my observations are common sense and, yes, based on what I see happening.
It is well known that girls are leaving every week or two;, years 7,8&9 are way too small;, teachers are applying for jobs because they are at risk of redundancy - they have mortgages to pay and would be crcrazy not to. When girls or teachers apply elsewhere then they always need a reference.
The numbers of girls left has now dropped way below 200. That is obvious to us all.
I would be pleased to hear that any of that is incorrect??

It is so much better for everyone if key facts about the current situation at Dunittar were confirmed and if i am wrong I will gladly apologise.

I only seek clarity but me asking for that will mean some will say I am smirking or pleased. Not true at all and I stand to lose out if the school does close.

I do hope the DV group have one or two people in their team who are able to step back and view the facts quite objectively.
The problem with a campaign like this is that all the activity becomes exciting and people get so passionate about the 'fight' that they sometimes lose sight of the original aim.
The last week or so has just been a whirlwind of 'save dunottar' messages, press releases and fund-raising activity.
I imagine that a lot of people started out believing that they were fighting to save 'their Dunottar' - a small, almost cosy, very nurturing all-girls environment, but once it becomes clear that the Dunottar of old simply can't continue they will drop away. Alternatively, they'll keep fighting, but then find that the 'prize' at the end isn't something that they actually ever wanted?
There now seems to be discussion on the DV site about co-ed in 6th form only? Or just for some subjects? It does all sound rather messy and a bit half-hearted - almost saying, yes boys, we want you here for your fees, but we don't want to have to interact with you!
Parents of boys are often looking for strong extracurricular sports in independent schools, and that would be a huge new area for Dunottar to have to develop - cricket, rugby, football?

Bert 123. That all makes sense to me and thanks for the information. What will be gained by employing a top barrister to investigate what has taken place?

The only real issue of any significance within any of this, is if Dunottarnis financially viable. It is the bottom line and the answer to that will decide its future. It doesn't matter if it was viable back in 2010 or whenever, but going forward now and into the medium term at least. The answer is determined by numbers. Not the numbers in July 2013 but the no.s now and info the future. If they are falling as many see evidence of, the cause becomes irrelevant. N the no.s simply mean it cannot continue.
Much of the other debate is interesting, but not relevant really. We already know Dunottar went to RGS. If they hadn't they would have had to close last summer. I really think the Head and others knew that the merger would not save them long term. They did it to buy time for girls and staff.....and they were prepared to effectively give the land long term to RGS in order to do this. This wasn't necessarily wrong and it would have been difficult to be entirely open about all of this, because whilst Dunottar leaders probably expected medium term closure, there was a chance it could have been saved. So RGS provided the guarantee to the auditors which kept them open. And long term they may well stand to be the beneficiaries, but they didn't drive Dunottar into decline in the first place or ask them to merge. Dunottar asked RGS. If Dunottar had closed in 2013 the land would have not benefitted them anyway, as a charity. Did it really matter to them who got it after closure?
Understandably people don't want Dunottar to close. However many seem to be distracted from the real issue of falling long term numbers and stalling numbers now, to looking for outside blame. Yes, RGS do look like they will gain into the long term, nut they have not caused the problem. Focusing on them will not solve the problem of numbers. It just muddies the water for people who struggle to dee the real issue and creates bitterness.
Turning around the numbers issue to the level it would require, in the timescale it would need to happen seems unlikely if not impossible to me. I really don't know where these extra girls or boys needed are going to come from at this stage of events. This is what the Governors will have to consider as the key basis of their final decision.

So why is a barrister soon to be appointed? She won't be able to create extra pupils.

I can see that parents and staff at a school that is faced with possible closure don't like of an alternative school benefitting. Getting fixated with this though, isn't productive. Blaming the other school won't change things. Even if a barrister was employed and could show RGS had acted wrongly (and I really can't see that happening. By the sounds of it, they didn't commit to actually do very much at all) it wouldn't alter the numbers issue. The end result of closure would be the same.

When I first got to know that there was no longer RGS support for Dunottar and that a PAG had been formed, my thoughts were exactly the same as yours CW. The trustees havehave now committed to accepting a viable business plan if one were put forward.

What could be in place soon is a 5 year fully costed and financially underwritten plan that accounts for a worst case scenario of having low residual numbers initially. The school would then expand given the strong demand for places. The Junior school would be relaunched.

Please don't write Dunottor off!

Oh that is interesting....and just the kind of thing we would like to know on here. Thank you.
I will be interested to see those current numbers and projections and importantly what they are based on.
I look forward to them being shared with us all, because they are so important.

Let's all hope that the PAG is successful in all of this and what has happened will be a lesson to all (no pun intended). We all must keep positive and hope for the very best for the girls.

How many of the staff are involved in drawing up the plan?

No idea how many teachers but expect a good number of accountants and marketing people.

That would worry me! Especially if the twitter campaign has been masterminded by "marketing people".

I do wish Dunottar parents the best of luck in their efforts to secure their dds education.

I'm a bit confused. I can understand the logic of putting together a business plan which hopefully gets agreement from the Trustees but why are they fund raising for a barrister, is this in case the business plan doesn't gain acceptance and they feel they need to take legal action? I think they need to be very clear as to what they are doing if they are asking people for money.