Is everybody happy with their choice of a NON-selective secondary education over a selective one?

[AdventuresWithVoles]

Genuine question.

"State schools are so focused on league tables, that as long as pupils are on target for a grade C, they are happy. Pupils who could achieve A's but are on target for B's and C's like DD, can be forgotten about because they will not affect the league table IUSWIM."

That, with respect isn't true- or certainly shouldn't be. A school would be held to account, for example, if pupils coming in on a level 5 don't get Bs and As at GCSE. If your dd was formally predicted As and doesn't get them, and this isn't a rare occurrence for the school, OFSTED will be very interested.

Seeker, Ofsted did inspect the school before Christmas and standards had dropped since the past inspection. The school got an overall satisfactory. It was good with outstanding features when DD began.

DD is quite honest with admitting how much effort she has put in and how she compares to her peers. It's quite common that she has come home and said the majority of the class has under performed.

It was the schools response to DD wanting to re-sit her English exam that made me wonder what their game was. She was put at a disadvantage to children who were re-sitting from a D grade. These were kids in the same set as DD, who were also predicted A's and B's. They were given extra support outside school hours. DD was first told she couldn't resit until we complained. Then she was told she could do the resit but wouldn't get the extra support because that class was for kids trying to get a C grade ands dd was aiming for higher.

Also when she was not achieving in maths and the school was concerned she could end up with a D, they put her in for the Linear exam to make sure she gets at least a C. Of course this goes in our favour as DD has struggled to learn with the teacher she had. But it does confirm my suspicions that the school are more interested with league tables than individual pupils.

I think voldemort's reply has more than a hint of truth about majority of schools who game the league table system. When i was looking at secondary schools for dc all had a teacher and team dedicated to pushing up kids predicted d's to c's when i asked if they had a dedicated teacher pushing predicated c's and b's to a's i was met with stunned silence. Not sure if grammars do put in extra effort in pushing b+ cs to a's. But im sure someone out there will enlighten us

mumzy my childrens' grammar puts enormous effort into pushing, or supporting, each child. I've seen this is action many times and particularly recently with my boys, when they cruise, whether that's at the start in Y7 or later on when teen stuff kicks in. The individual tracking system is superb. I'm absolutely convinced that mine would emerge with very different grades indeed from either of the schools up the road, and a different attitude to work.

What Voldemort says is depressing. And seeker, what use to her DD is a scathing OFSTED report? None at all.

Overall I made the right choice.
DS1 just completing his GCSEs and predicted mostly A*s. He has been very happy at his rural comp and has learned to mix with others from very different backgrounds. He is highly motivated and ambitious. DS2 is in Y9 and also doing well.
Where I think he would have done better is in acquiring the self confidence and social skills that would smooth his way through university and job interviews.

Both boys could have got into the grammar in the next county. Much travelling would have been involved and from what I can see, while ability is a factor the main selection criteria is wealthy, pushy parents. A colleague of mine who is a hospital consultant has just bought a little house next to the school. No idea of her DCs ability but she typifies the people I know who send their DCs to the grammar.

No grammar schools in this area, can't afford private, so non-selective comprehensives are our only option. Would like to see grammars reintroduced in all areas so academic selection will no longer be an option only for those with money.

You know, these posts are really pretty insulting to kids whose parents don't have shedloads of money and who have won a well deserved place at a grammar. And insulting to kids who passed the test on their own merit despite having adequate money.

I wonder how you think the 11+ tests for those twin criteria (wealth and pushiness) Squirrel?

Mine have all gone to our local catholic school which is actually more comprehensive in its intake than the boys school/girls school/state boarding school in the town. My two DD's are already at university and DS is in year 10 and they have all been supported and encouraged to achieve their best. DD1 went very "teenage" in year 10 and she still managed really good results at GCSE thanks to pushing by the school.

It seems very short sighted of your DD's school to not allow resits Voldemort when a child hasn't got the best grade possible for them - DS has taken English Language GCSE this year and his English teacher has already said if anything went wrong on the day he could retake in Jan to make sure he gets an A*. What is important is DS's individual targets rather than the number getting a C grade.

yellowtip If the exam entry was fair and something taught at primary school, then I would take your point. But in reality, children do need to be coached how to pass those tests, which either means a parent has to coach them or you have to pay for private tuition.

To be fair I dont know how it works in county's with grammar school systems. Maybe those kids have a fairer advantage.

Also all children deserve a good education despite social status or academic ability. why should a child gaining entrance into grammar school be well deserving of a good education because they are academically bright. But the child who puts in 100% effort and doesn't get the results is not so deserving.

I realise that a scathing OFStED report will be no usento voldemort's dd. What i was trying to say is that a school which has it's eye on it's league table position and it's OFSTED rating should not be letting a higher ability child rest on hr laurels- they will be judged on the expected progress of that child- which means that letting her get a C will reflect badly on them. It's not just a-cs that are being measured, it's each child's progress..and I am surprised they are not pushing her to resit!

And for those of you saying you would like to see the reintroduction of grammar schools, remember that you are also calling for the reintroduction of secondary moderns....

I suppose it depends on the schools ethos webwiz Mine are in catholic schools as well, but different ones due to same sex schools.

I'm sure that DD will still do well, and she is definitely partly to blame. Unfortunately she is on catch up this year. some of her GCSEs are modular based, so she has already banked poor results.

It's also really disappointing when they get to the exam and realise there are things they haven't been taught. This has happened to DD twice so far. Once in science and also in Spanish. She was getting solid A* in mock exams.

Seeker I'm hoping that ofsted has given DDs school a kick up the arse, as she wants to stay on at 6th form for A levels

There are just too many ways for schools to approach GCSEs at the moment Voldemort and we are at the mercy of whatever our DCs school have chosen to do. Just a quick browse through this section brings up all sorts of approaches - exams in year 9, 10 and 11, anything from 8 to 14 GCSES taken, Maths and English taken in november, modules, linear versions, no resits, lots of resits etc etc. O levels were much less complicated!

"And for those of you saying you would like to see the reintroduction of grammar schools, remember that you are also calling for the reintroduction of secondary moderns...."

Yes, of course. I think it makes sense for those of similar ability to be educated together. Of the older people I can think of, there are quite a few who had neither money nor pushy parents, and wouldn't have afforded private school, but did well at grammar school. In the current system they would no longer have this opportunity.

There may be some children on the borderline at 11+ but the vast majority will end up in the correct school. Also it shouldn't be beyond the wit of 21st century educationalists to come up with a more sophisticated version of the 11-plus, or even a three-tier system instead of two-tier, as works well in some countries.

I think it makes sense for those of similar ability to be educated together
but not all children are equally able in all subjects
great at maths, rubbish at english
great at music, rubbish at science
great at sport, rubbish at languages

the point of a comp is that every child gets access to excellent teaching in their subject of excellence
whereas if selection has taken place, kids miss out on the chance to excel in single subjects

But why not a prpr comprehensive with robust streaming/setting? Until you have lived in a small town with a grammar school at one side of it and a high school at the other you can have no idea how destructive and divisive it is.

I'm not disputing that children do well at grammar school, I believe DD would be expecting higher grades if she went down that route.

However the problem was never with the grammar school. It was with the secondary modern. until the day comes that we give the average child a real chance and change perceptions on getting a career is more worthy than a trade, the average child is always going to be at a disadvantage. It is much harder to get an apprentice in this country than get into university. I don't mean an NVQ in the local college, I mean a proper apprentice in a trade.

And whatever anyone says about "oh, it's not about passing or failing, it's just aout choosing the right school for the right child" the child that doesn't pass the 11+, or who isn't considered suitable even to try is bound to feel inferior to the (in our town ) 23% who pass.

The old ethos of grammar schools was to give opportunities to all.
Now , because they are few and far between, they are not open to all children who have the ability to pass the 11plus.
There are of course exceptions, but in many cases people buy homes in the locality, often house prices are at a premium. Intensive private tutoring secures places for others who might not otherwise have succeeded. This is why I say that wealth is a factor.

I have nothing against grammars as they were until 1974 but as Voldemort says it was the failure of secondary moderns to give good vocational training that led to the comprehensive system.

I would actually be interested in whether that idea of grammar schools in the old days giving opportunities for all would stand up to scrutiny. Passing the 11+ didn't pay for uniform, or sports stuff for example. And I am sure there was still an "us and them " feeling- we live in a small town where practically every child goes either to the grammar and the high, and there a still families who won't put their children in for the exam, however bright, because of a "not for the likes of us" feeling.

Well my Mum passed the 11+ but wasn't allowed to go to the grammar school because it had a more expensive uniform and I think she is still bitter about it now!

@ Voldemort. We don't have a grammar system here, just a single grammar in a wide area. That has the benefit of leaving the nearby schools relatively untouched in terms of their comprehensiveness, unlike those where seeker lives. It's much less divisive.

@ seeker I'd hate to see the secondary moderns re-introduced as they were. I remember well the enmity on the shared public bus, including my hair and my friend Jane's hair set on fire by a couple of secondary modern girls, ostensibly on account of our hats (very silly hats, I concede), but of course it went much deeper. There are very good models we could use to make the different tier fully fit for purpose if there was a second time around.

@ webwiz as you can see, the uniform brought it's own hazards :)

Where I grew up, there is still a grammar school system. It seems to have changed massively from my day when you either passed the 11+ and went to a grammar or failed and went to a secondary modern. We met a boy who had moved to one of the grammars at 12+ (this did not happen in my day), and my friend's boys have chosen to go to the local comp rather than one of the grammar schools and they are doing very well indeed.