Appeals for secondary - thread to chat and exchange experiences

[YvonneCalling]

Morning

I thought I would create a space to chat/angst/commiserate/congratulate all those in the school appeals purgatory!

We have a date for our appeal - next Thursday, with our group hearing next Tues. We received the LA's case yesterday, so are ploughing through, trying to think of useful questions and comments.

Am I right in thinking that that the group hearing is the collective chance for parents to show the general case that more children can be admitted, and then the individual hearing is the time to say that your child should be at the head of the queue?

I would love to hear anyone's experiences of what these meetings were like, and also what sort of questions you were asked at the individual meeting, plus when you heard the outcome!

Anyone care to join me on here? Just to say hello, so I don't feel all alone

We had our individual appeal today too. We went in quite positive after the plenary session on Tuesday where the school's case that they were full was pulled apart quite well by a number of parents quoting facts and figures.

However, as soon as we got in there the Chair said that they had decided that they agreed that the school was full, which deflated us immediately . After that, the LA woman just talked through the admissions proceedure which was all as it should be, and said nothing else throughout. The panel then asked us to speak, and we briefly said what we thought were the two most powerful points of our case, plus we raised something that had only come out at the weekend, which they were unaware of, but could have some bearing.

They asked a lot of very specific, technical questions which showed that they had read our submission very carefully, but gave us the impression they were not convinced . They also asked us a hypothetical question, to which we felt we were damned if we did and damned if we didn't .

We were in there for about 40mins, and while we feel we did our best, are not hopeful that we wil get the outcome we want. There were a couple of things that the panel interpreted slightly askew, which I am not sure we were able to correct.

There are 40+ appeals for the school, so we won't hear till 29th May. Not feeling good about it, but relieved it is at least over now.

Appellants should not be asked for or about their occupation unless there is a very specific reason. The most obvious reason is that their occupation may have some influence on the school appealed for. To give a couple of examples, if you were a head teacher of a primary school and your son was allocated the secondary school where all the pupils from parent's school the panel may consider that there is potential for bullying of the pupil. I have seen this happen where the pupil did not get into the oversubscribed local school and was given a place at a school a few miles away which is where parent was primary school head teacher. Same principle can apply where parent is in the police or social services, the pupil may have issues if allocated a place at school where parent is involved. This is effectively only an issue in secondary schools.

Sorry, another question for those of youin the know (last one I promise!)
I saw a friend at school this morning who alsoi had her hearing yesterday and asked how it had gone. She had planned that she would attend the hearing alone because her younger son had a hospital appointment that her DH had to take him to. Unfortunately her DH was caught at work in another part of the country so really couldn't get home in time so she would have to take her sone to his appointment. She rang the LEA first thing yesterday and explained her circumstance, asking if she could be possibly be fitted in today (appeals heard over two days). She has been told definitely not, appeal panel have considered her case on her written submission only. She is distraught because she feels she has been denied her full opportunity to be heard through circumstances which were completely immovable, given a choice between a long awaited appointment for her sons health (he has operation on Monday which would have been cancelled had she had to reschedule his appointment) and her daughters education.
Is it worth her putting in a complaint to the ombudsman? I think she knows their decision is final but is understandably feeling terrible for letting her daughter down

The Appeals Code says that the hearing can go ahead on the written information if the appellant fails to attend or is unable to attend and it is impractical to offer an alternative date. So the question is whether an alternative date was impractical.

The fact that your friend gave such short notice counts against her. On the other hand, if there was a slot available today there doesn't seem to be any good reason for the LA's refusal to allow the appeal to be moved.

If she loses her appeal I would certainly try complaining to the LGO. It may not achieve anything but it may result in a fresh hearing.

Thank you again for your advise

Something not quite right here, if she phoned first thing yesterday then the appeal had not taken place and as such the panel would not have considered her case. She had until the time of her appeal to do something about it.
If the person told her too late then this is unacceptable. They should have been able to reschedule to today, I have done 40+ appeals this week and we rescheduled I believe 3 during the three days of appeals.
What would also have be perfectly acceptable would have been for her to withdraw from the appeal as they cannot get there and then re-apply for an appeal. She should have been given this opportunity along with the option of the panel hearing the appeal with her not present, given the emergency circumstances.
I would go to the LGO now, it sounds like an excuse if you go after you get a refusal letter.

@ph47bridge @admissions: Just found out today that of the 90+ appeals for the London Oratory, none were upheld! Is this usual? I just find that astonishing.

Yes, I can confirm that The London Oratory appeal panels were very nice people but not intrested in appeal cases hence didnt bother to ask any questions and Headmaster sat in room before we arrived for an appeal and stayed with them when we left the room with clerk.

Panel also did not Q Headmaster (presenting Officer).

I think that might be breach of the Appeals Code in some way.

Isky

It is a clear breach of the Appeals Code paragraph 2.15 - "One party must not be left alone with the panel in the absence of the other." The "must not" in that sentence means it is compulsory. The Headmaster should have entered the room when you did and left when you did.

The appeal panel does not have to ask questions but it is good practise for them to do so even if they think they understand the case fully, if for no other reason than to make it clear to everyone that they are independent.

Putting the lack of questions together with the breach of 2.15 and the failure of all 90+ appeals strongly suggests that this appeal panel is not properly independent. Please refer this to the LGO and encourage other parents to do so. I would expect the LGO to recommend a new appeal with a different panel for any parent who complains.

I agree with PRH, this needs to go to the LGO for further investigation.
It is possible that all 90 appeals can be rejected if there was an overwhelming case of prejudice against the school and no appellants had good cases. However given the schools facilities I would be at a loss to know what it could be.
When you combine that with the previous "history" of this school when it comes to who gets admitted on a very complicated set of admission criteria, definitely time to talk to the LGO.

I'll have a chat with the guy I spoke with who works for a firm who runs appeals on behalf of parents. I've interviewed him in the past, which was my interest in the situation, whilst he was also actually representing a family applying for a place there. When I spoke with him on Friday, in his case, he said that the panel was run above board, an avenue he looks out for like a hawk as he knows it's a reason for readdress. Nonetheless, he was still furious. Bearing in mind also, they probably know him from previous hearings, so it may well be possible that the panel acted more lawfully, in his case only! The Oratory have also been in the papers recently for the way they conducted a recent appeal hearing and as such, was criticized by the ombudsman www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fulham-and-hammersmith-news/local-fulham-and-hammersmith-news/2012/03/27/london-oratory-school-criticised-by-ombudsman-over-appeal-process-82029-30635764/

Good morning again
Anyone else got an appeal this week or getting the results? Good luck if you are .

I am surprised to see stories on here of what sounds like poor conduct at appeals hearings, but I hope sharing some of these stories gives people courage to complain when things seem not to be handled properly.

Thanks again to our very helpful and generous appeals experts too, who must be busy enough with this in working hours lol!

Hi all,

after fully utilising all previous advice when my dd got none of her 6 reasonable choices, I am back for more help.
Can I please have some advice from all you ones in the know?

I attended an appeal hearing for my dd last week and just received the written decision. We were refused on distance. The school allocated to 1.42 miles and we are 1.47 miles (0.05 out). 16 appeals were lodged and heard.

I did my research and picked holes in the schools case as they has 22 vacancies at sixth form, no staggered lunch breaks for the younger years, no H&S incidents reported, lower pupil to teacher ratio than other schools performing better and had taken over roll in a previous year and had no issues with retention, recruitment or a drop in performance. I argued that they could re-configure and take in more children.

The letter states I was unsuccesful but they have agreed to admit 4 more children on the basis that they applied the distance measured wrongly. Therefore, the case for the school was not accepted. They then used section 3.9 of the admissions code: the panel agreed that the school would be prejudiced if all 16 children were admitted but agreed 4 children could be admitted, therefore, they compared the cases. My daughter was ranked fifth, so did not get a place.

In the minutes, they have incorrctly quoted the distance as 1.591 miles away with a cut of 1.42. I also got the schools statement 3 days before the hearing due to an admin error which i raised at the hearing but they only asked if I wanted to re-schedule.

My questions are:

1- were their actions correct or should they have gone back to the waiting list (my dd is number 3)?
2 - do I challenge on the inaccurate distance quoted in the minutes or assume its a typo and the panel had the correct details when they made the decision?
3 - is it worth going to JR or can I do something else first and if so, what?

I am also moving closer into the catchment area in 2 weeks and my dd place on the waiting list should rise from number 3 to number 1.

Any help gratefully accepted and thanks so much for being such a useful source of info and mor importantly support- its kept me sane!

I have just finished my written statement for an in-year appeal (year 8)

Would anyone be kind enough to have a look at it and give me some pointers?

I have tried to put in all relevant info but am worried that I've rambled/put too much info in?

Hi all
New to Mumsmet. I have a very interesting dilemna. I was unable to attend an appeal for my child but let it go ahead. Very big surprise was the appeal was (for the majority) held in my favour with the school being cited for making mistakes in my application. '.....there had been an error.....you had been disadvantaged and should be in a higher category on the schools waiting list...' despite these snippets of the appeals findings the appeal was not upheld; reason being the usual it would prejudice the school to intake another child.
What about my childs right to fair and equality!!!! I am trying to fight this!!!

prettyjen - No they should not have gone back to the waiting list. They aren't allowed to use the waiting list to decide which appeals succeed. They must give cases to those appellants with the strongest case.

Distance should not really have been a factor in their decision. But nonetheles quoting the wrong distance in the minutes is worrying.

If you are in England your next step, if you wish to pursue it, is the Local Government Ombudsman. They don't act as a second appeal but they will look at any concerns you have as to whether or not your appeal was conducted correctly. If they think there was a problem they will recommend a second appeal with a different panel.

mumofjust1 - Happy to look at your statement if you want to PM me.

sandraf71 - If the appeal panel has accepted there was a mistake it would be unusual for your appeal to fail unless the school really can't cope with any more children at all or there were a lot of children affected by mistakes. Without seeing exactly what your decision letter says I can't be certain what has happened here but you may want to refer the matter to the LGO.

Thanks brifge for the advice. Can you confirm if I can still use the LGO as its an Academy or is it just costly JR?

As it is an academy you go to the Education Funding Agency. There is information about how to refer the case to them and what they will dohere.

Prettyjen,
Maybe I am misunderstanding but am I right in saying that there were 16 appeals heard and in 4 cases the panel decided that the school had made a mistake in applying the right distance or did the school make a mistake in measuring all the distances for all 16 appellants?
If the mistake was with 4 cases then they should have been admitted in stage 1 because a mistake was made unless that would have seriously prejudiced the provision of efficient education. They should then have still considered whether the school had made its case in the other 12 appeals, which presumably they would have. Stage 2 is the personal cases for each appellant and after hearing all the 12 cases the panel then decides which cases outweigh the prejudice to the school. If possible all these are admitted or if the panel believes only some can be admitted it is up to that limit based on the which are the strongest cases.
If however in all 16 cases the distances were wrong then I question how they could know that all should be admitted. In that instance they should have adjourned and asked the admission authority to completely redo the distance measurements and come up with a new admission list and then establish who has been denied a place. Just assuming that all 16 were disadvantaged is wrong in my opinion.
Can you clarify what the situation was please?

Viva - My best friend was in the same position as you last year. Her son is very dyslexic but very bright, he didn't get extra time in the exam as he was still under assessment at the time. The grammar is a super selective so admits on score only, he didn't rank high enough to get a place or stand a chance on the waiting list. He did very very well on the maths paper but the VR and English were not reflective of his ability.

Like in your case the first appeal was hopeless and the panel head quite dismissive and rude and she felt they weren't following protocol. They lost the appeal but my friend complained to the LGO submitting lengthy evidence as to how the admissions code had not been applied correctly and also showing that the school were able to take more children despite what they claimed, they had room for 12 more it turned out but they were keeping that quiet! (she got this information by requesting floor plans and previous years numbers etc.. from the LA under FOI).

The LGO upheld her complaint and told the LA to hold a second appeal with a different panel, which they did reluctantly, dragging their feet all the way. My friend really had to keep her nerve and keep pushing. The 2nd appeal was finally held a day before the school term started and a day after the comprehensive he would have gone to- she kept him off pending the outcome.

Happily this appeal was upheld as she had so much evidence of breach of admission code and unprofessionality. He started the grammar the next day and is doing really well there and his sen is well supported. It was a very stressful time for everyone involved so i can understand you might not wish to fight that far but your story sounds so similar i thought you might like to read this.

Just checking in.
We find out next week. Very nervous about the outcome - couldn't read the Panel at all, so no idea how it went. Do Panel members have poker face training?

Very nervous now. We hear tomorrow what the outcome is, and I have no idea which way it'll go. I re-read our case, and on paper it feels strong. However, both DH and I came out of the appeal without much hope
Oh, this waiting is horrible!
Anyone else?

YAY!! DS got in! The appeal panel found our case strong enough to admit him to the school we want. Such a relief .
That has been a hard few months. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted.
Can't wait to tell him .

Best of luck for those of you still going through it. I know how unfair it all feels...

HUGE thanks to all those who have posted advice and expertise on here. I think our case was SO much better for it .

Congratulations!

@YvonneCalling - Funny, I only just remembered to check back here to see how you got on (been following, without commenting). Such great news, well done you. I bet you couldn't believe it when you opened the letter:)