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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Appeals for secondary - thread to chat and exchange experiences

125 replies

YvonneCalling · 09/05/2012 09:39

Morning

I thought I would create a space to chat/angst/commiserate/congratulate all those in the school appeals purgatory!

We have a date for our appeal - next Thursday, with our group hearing next Tues. We received the LA's case yesterday, so are ploughing through, trying to think of useful questions and comments.

Am I right in thinking that that the group hearing is the collective chance for parents to show the general case that more children can be admitted, and then the individual hearing is the time to say that your child should be at the head of the queue?

I would love to hear anyone's experiences of what these meetings were like, and also what sort of questions you were asked at the individual meeting, plus when you heard the outcome!

Anyone care to join me on here? Just to say hello, so I don't feel all alone

OP posts:

VivaLeBeaver · 09/05/2012 21:22

Thanks. School argument seems to be about physical limitations, classrooms too small, not enough computers, not enough desks, health and safety implications in science labs, etc.

Original poster

YvonneCalling · 09/05/2012 21:29

Good luck for tomorrow. It sounds like you are in with a chance . Do come back and let us know how it went.

OP posts:

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud · 09/05/2012 21:34

That sounds like the stock response from the school.

VivaLeBeaver · 09/05/2012 21:43

I will update. We find out on Friday if we are successful or not as well.

happyoverhere · 10/05/2012 09:14

Hi VivaLeBeaver; we have our appeal today too, so I share your pain. Our DC did not pass, by one question!, so we have a double hill to climb. Your case sounds good so good luck to you too today.

VivaLeBeaver · 10/05/2012 09:21

Good luck Happy

I do think we have a good case. But I think it will depend on who has the best case and obviously I don't know others' reasons for appealing. There are a lot appealing and while I'm sure they could squeeze 2 or 3 in like they do most years I don't know if we'll be deemed worthy of being in the top 2 or 3.

All I know is that I want to tell dd that we gave it our best shot.

I feel really paniced this morning and am now worried I will cry in the appeal! I keep telling myself it doesn't matter, the school she has a place at isn't a bad school, etc.

Original poster

YvonneCalling · 10/05/2012 09:46

Fingers crossed for both of you VivaLeBeaver and happyoverhere. I'm sure your children know you have done all you can , and it is the system that seems so unfair.

OP posts:

VivaLeBeaver · 10/05/2012 12:43

Well I'm back - I don;t think it went very well and I think I've blown it. I've thought of a couple of things afterwards that I didn't say that I wish I had now.

Didn't talk about one reason for not wanting her to go to the comp was that if she was struggling with her dyslexia they might not realise why she's struggling and just think that she's not very bright and let her drift. Which is a main point really.

I did talk about how I thought the school we're appealing for has better support for sen kids and would be less of a distracting environment for her as all kids would be working hard. And dyslexic kids struggle with distraction.

The LEA bloke asked me if on the open evening if I'd gone and talked to the SEN person for the school and I had to admit I hadn't. But I did go on to say I'd talked to teh deputy head who had answered all my questions.

Then one of the panel said he'd be interested to know the breakdown of the scores between VR and NVR as her dyslexic report suggests that she'd struggle with VR more. I had to to agree to them knowing hte score - she got 101 for vr and 119 for nvr (pass mark is 220) so a big difference. And one of the panel actually whistled in an astonished way when he heard the low score. Which doesn't bode well.

The lea bloke was going on about how grammar schools are very verbal in the way they teach and did I not think that dd would struggle as vr is her weaker area. I talked about how she's on track to get 5s in all areas for her SATS inc comprehension. She's a book worm, keen reader, etc.

PanelChair · 10/05/2012 13:29

Don't worry too much about not mentioning reasons why you don't want the comp - the appeal has to be about positive reasons for wanting the school you're appealing for, not negative reasons against the allocated school, and you sound as if you've covered that. (Besides, most comps do tests as children arrive, to determine sets or bands, so they would detect that your daughter is bright, so that aspect of your argument would be unlikely to sway the panel).

The panel member who whistled in astonishment sounds very unprofessional. Is there anything to say that candidates have to get a minimum in each paper, as long as they reach the overall pass mark?

It sounds to me as if you also responded well to the question from the LEA about verbal teaching styles. Fingers crossed.

Original poster

YvonneCalling · 10/05/2012 13:30

Hi VivaLeBeaver. Well done for getting through this morning. The fact you talked about the less distracting environment at the grammar is good - we are told on here to sell the school we want and not criticise the one we don't, so maybe not talking about the other school letting her drift might have been a good thing?

I am not sure that you can draw any conclusions from the panel member's reaction to the VR score (other than he wasn't being very discrete). Maybe the fact that the grammar has such good SEN support will show that they are best placed to help your dd overcome these difficulties, although if she is working at level 5 then her achievement is good anyway, despite the dyslexia?

Not long to wait till you hear . I will keep things crossed!

OP posts:

VivaLeBeaver · 10/05/2012 14:19

No, they don't have to pass both papers - they just have to pass overall. I also pointed out that we didn't ask for extra time for dd in the 11+ even though she would have been entitled to it as I wanted her to pass without any doubt in my mind that she deserved to. The panel seemed to take that on board.

And yes I think that the fact she's working at Lvl 5 shows with the right support she can do well academically.

SchoolsNightmare · 10/05/2012 14:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

happyoverhere · 10/05/2012 15:45

I'm back too. Like Viva I'm not sure what to make of it, school had a very weak case and said they could take extra pupils but they were hearing 57 appeals so came out a bit deflated. Will be nervously waiting the post next week now.......

Original poster

YvonneCalling · 10/05/2012 15:48

Mixed news for you happyoverhere. Very good that the school can admit more. You just have to hope that your personal case was strong enough to be one of them. 57 is a lot of appeals - maybe many of them were from children who were further away from the pass mark?

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VivaLeBeaver · 10/05/2012 16:04

That does sound good that the school have said they can manage some more.

hackneyLass · 10/05/2012 16:08

Hi everyone, good to hear how you are all doing.

My question is: how much do I bug the school for information before the appeal hearing?

I have asked the school, an academy, very politely once by phone and twice by email, some questions which I think are reasonable. The school hasn't responded at all and my appeal is on Monday. Should I keep bugging them or go into the appeal and ask the information then, and hope they have it to hand and that I can incorporate it into my statement?

I asked how many pupils were admitted in each year for the past few years; how many class groups per year (i.e. 6 x 25 or whatever); what subjects are offered at GCSE; and after-school clubs offered in y7 & y8. I've not been able to find out this information elsewhere (and believe me I've tried...).

VivaLeBeaver · 10/05/2012 16:18

I don't think in the appeal they would know - they'd know numbers admitted in previous years but prob not the other stuff. There was noone from the actual school there at our appeal. I don't think the LEA bloke would know about afetr school clubs, etc.

Try the school again? Do you not know anyone who has a child there? School's website.

hackneyLass · 10/05/2012 16:27

Ohh the power of MN. A mere 1 minute after I posted here I got an email from the school saying "The information you require will be available for both you and the panel at the time of your appeal meeting."

So I'll have to work out how to weave what they say into my statement e.g. "School X is the right one for my child as they and only they provide GCSEs in, err", shuffles papers, " X, Y, Z"

titchy · 10/05/2012 17:15

I think they have to give you all the info you require at least a week before the appeal.. You might want to check that.

Original poster

YvonneCalling · 10/05/2012 17:39

Yes, that surprises me, HackneyLass. Surely you can't make an informed argument without access to the facts beforehand? Can you contact your school appeals person to let them know this is what the school are saying - I would have thought they wouldn't be too happy.
We have received the case that our preferred school is full a week before our hearing, and the school is being helpful in answering our questions in relation to that so at the group presentation we know what we are dealing with...

OP posts:

hackneyLass · 10/05/2012 19:00

I am not sure there is much more I can do re the school. I can of course raise it with the panel, that it makes it more tricky for me to present my case if I have only just received information. I am sure they will be sympathetic, and presumably all the other people appealing will be in the same boat. There is no Stage 1 group presentation, just straight in to our individual appeal.

The school has not been helpful at any stage but they are an academy and get about 100 appeals so I guess they can do what they like...

PanelChair · 10/05/2012 20:44

The school are supposed to provide the information you need to prepare your appeal. I'm on my phone and can't check the wording of the appeal code, but I have never believed that providing the information on the day is good enough.

Press the school to give you the information now. If they don't, then lay it on with a trowel at the hearing that the school have been obstructive and have held information back. The panel won't be impressed. The next issue is whether the panel will order an adjournment to enable you to digest the information from the school - a long adjournment is a mixed blessing because ideally you don't want to be separated from the other appeals.

prh47bridge · 10/05/2012 23:22

The current appeals code says "Admission authorities must comply with reasonable requests from parents for information which they need to help them prepare their case for appeal" (paragraph 2.8). Whilst that doesn't specifically say the information must be provided before the day it clearly won't help parents prepare their case unless it is provided in advance. I would therefore argue that the school is acting in breach of the appeals code.

VivaLeBeaver · 11/05/2012 07:16

Can I ask if people think that something that was said in our hearing was a bit off?

Bloke from the LEA opened by asking if we were appealing saying that dd had scored so highly a grammar school was the only suitable place for her.

I said no.

He said "good, because if you'd said yes I'd have had to have told the panel her score".

Now as far as I'm aware the panel aren't entitled to know the score and I felt by what he said he was telling the panel that dd had a low passmark.

This is an oversubscription appeal where places for the school are allocated to the nearest children who passed. DD passed but just. The clerk person actually interrupted soon after this and said she wanted to make it clear that dd's academic ability wasn't been called into question as she had passed.

But then after that the lea bloke was asking didn't we think that dd might struggle with the verbal style of grammar school teaching as that's where she's weak.

Its niggling at me more and more. I do feel that they were questioning her ability the whole way through when they're not meant to.

PanelChair · 11/05/2012 07:50

It does sound questionable, but the clerk seems (rightly) to have set the record straight and I am sure the panel will have been guided by that.

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