Appeals for secondary - thread to chat and exchange experiences

[YvonneCalling]

Morning

I thought I would create a space to chat/angst/commiserate/congratulate all those in the school appeals purgatory!

We have a date for our appeal - next Thursday, with our group hearing next Tues. We received the LA's case yesterday, so are ploughing through, trying to think of useful questions and comments.

Am I right in thinking that that the group hearing is the collective chance for parents to show the general case that more children can be admitted, and then the individual hearing is the time to say that your child should be at the head of the queue?

I would love to hear anyone's experiences of what these meetings were like, and also what sort of questions you were asked at the individual meeting, plus when you heard the outcome!

Anyone care to join me on here? Just to say hello, so I don't feel all alone

No, I probably need to talk to the SENCO at the comp, haven't done yet.

The reason we didn't want her to have extra time is because I wanted her to pass on the same "level playing field" as everyone else. If she had got in to the Grammar she would have to be able to cope with the workloads/pressures in lessons without extra time.

If she'd had extra time and still scraped the pass mark I'd have been worrying then if she would have coped with the Grammar and I wouldn't have been as sure that appealing would have been the best option.

I see your logic in that VivaLeBeaver, and anyway you can't go back and change your decision about extra time now.

I suspect that if you speak to the SENCo and also make it clear that your DD will need to be gently pushed to achieve, rather than be allowed to coast, that your school will step up to it. They want bright children to do the best they can because it looks good for them, so starting off with the idea that your DD may be one of the ones that they get to crow about in five years time may be more effective than a school which might see your dd as someone who has to be pushed to 'keep up'.

While it may be that your dd has fewer academic peers at your allocated school, she may well do really well feeling top of the pile, which may incentivise her to work harder than being in the middle...

Easy for me to say, I may well be in your position in a couple of weeks and feeling totally hacked off, but one thing this process has shown me is that we can't change the things we can't change, but we can change how we react and deal with them. I will not let what I see as 'unfairness' make me bitter and twisted and I will make sure my DS gets whatever he needs wherever he ends up.

VivaLeBeaver - If you contact the LGO there will be no question of the panel members sticking together. That isn't how the LGO works.

The Clerk to the appeal will have kept notes of the hearing and also of the panel's discussions that led to the decision. The LGO will demand a copy of those notes. That should show that your daughter's score was discussed and you were questioned about her low score for VR and her ability to cope with grammar school. It may also record the opening remark from the LA's representative about having to reveal your daughter's score if you were suggesting that she is so bright she must go to grammar school. If the panel discussed scores in making their decision that should also have been recorded by the Clerk.

The LGO may well decide that the fact the panel were told your daughter's score and asked about how well she would cope is enough in itself to decide in your favour regardless of whether or not there is any evidence that this influenced their decision.

I would, by the way, make the point to the LGO that the opening remark of the LA's representative seemed designed to hint to the panel that she had only just passed and that you were subsequently pressured by the panel into allowing your daughter's scores to be revealed.

Yvonnecalling thanks for asking, we were successful. Our panel knew our DCs score too and discussed it but it worked in our favour.

VivaLeBeaver so sorry that you did not get a place. Seems like you have good advice here though. Good luck with the next steps.

Just back from my appeal - thanks for the kind words YvonneCalling. My main thought was ... it was very quick, all done in slightly more than 20 mins. Friendly but quick. The school stated their case in a couple of sentences: the school is full, DS was refused because he lives too far. I stated my case, reading from my bullet points. 2 simple questions from panel. School summed up: my son's situation was nothing exceptional, the appeal not strong. Panel reiterated that they made the decision. Thanks and goodbye. Didn't even get to the info I'd requested so no discussion of PAN numbers, classroom or canteen arrangements... I hear next week. And now.... baking as distraction.

happyoverhere - very pleased your appeal was successful . Worth the stress then. Any idea how many of those appealing got places, as you were part of a big group weren't you?

hackneyLass - I'm a bit over your experience. Tbh, it sounds like your school is just going through the motions, which I really didn't think could be allowed to happen . No info before appeal, quick run through, no details - how can the panel make a reasoned judgement about balancing prejudice without detail? and why didn't they demand more info? It sounds really disapppinting. Maybe it is one of the situations where you just can't tell how it went. Good luck for next week...

Right, I've emailed and requested a copy of the notes for myself. Will be interested to read what they've put. Will update when I find out.

VivaLeBeaver - let us know how it goes, be interesting to see what you get!

Yvonne Calling - its a numbers game, they get about 100 appeals and no more than 10 are successful. I guess it's not practical to give everyone more time, especially if most will fail anyway. But a lot of work went into that 20 minutes... And the LEA said the school took no pupils from the waiting list last year so an appeal is the only option which obviously keeps the numbers up.

hackneyLass - That does not sound like a proper hearing to me. Two sentences from the school is nowhere near enough. Did the panel ask the school's representative any questions? Did they give you the chance to question the school? Did they ask you to sum up your case?

If your appeal is rejected I would take it to the LGO on the grounds that the school clearly breached the appeal code by failing to provide requested information and the hearing itself was inadequate. They may have 100 appeals to get through but they must still do it properly. They should save themselves some time by having all the parents in for stage 1 where the school presents their case and the parents and panel ask questions. They could then spend more time on the individual cases.

Hackneylass that is completely inadequate as a hearing. The appeal panel have failed at the first hurdle in that the school being full is not adequate reasons for not admitting more, the school has to confirm the reasons behind their statement, overcrowded corridors, insufficient dining area, hall, small rooms etc.
They have not proved stage 1 and actually they cannot do it to you as they have to hear every individual case for stage 1 before making any decision. To tell you there and then is just plain wrong.
To then go on and describe your case as not exceptional, the appeal not strong when again they have not heard all the cases is just jaw dropping - should not happen either from the school or the appeal panel.
I think that it will be a major surprise if there is anything positive in the letter next week, but then you absolutely have to go to the LGO, that is just a sham of an appeal.

Help! Could someone decipher this quote for me please?

I think it may be relevant to us because our preferred school has space for at least 4, possibly 8 children without any prejudice (because they have had or are planning to have this number in a few years time anyway).

What I want to know is, if the panel agree to (say) 8 children coming in because the school have space, how do they select those 8 - the quote below suggests they will be selected 'considering the admission arrangemets applying to that school', and only after the school is full will appeal children be ranked and considered. I am worried because our school is allocated via lottery, so while we have a medium strength case at appeal, might we not get a place at th easier stage because the 8 places could be randomly allocated .

"^Where, either at the end of the plenary session or at the end of stage 1, the panel is not satisfied that the admission authority?s case is a good one, it can decide that the admission of more children would be possible up to a particular limit.

If the panel makes this decision, the children will be admitted up to that number by the panel considering the admission arrangements applying to that school. This process will be followed until the point at which the panel has decided that the resources or efficient education at the school would be adversely affected. If there are any appeals still remaining, the panel will move to the next stage.

If the decision of the panel is to agree with the admission authority?s case (or after the panel has added pupils at stage 1) that the school is full, it can still decide to admit more pupils. The panel will make this decision based on the circumstances of each particular case. If the panel believes that there is a very sound and convincing reason for your child to get a place at the school even though it is full, it can tell the admission authority that it must give your child a place. That is why it is important that you must give a full account of your reasons for wanting your child to go to that school.^"

Any idea??

Another question!
To what does 'classroom usage rate' refer, and does it matter? Neither Ofsted nor Dept of Ed seem to mention it, but the school says it is above average...
Anyone?

My first comment is that your quotation is actually not how the admission process must work according to the 2012 admission appeal code, so that is slightly worrying. Which LA are we talking about or is it a school that is its own admission authority. I think you need to establish from the school or LA whether this is exactly the current process and if necessary tell them they are not doing it right.
At stage 1 of the process, the school will argue that the school cannot take any more pupils as it is full and give a series of reasons for this, overcrowded corridors, small classrooms etc. Part of that in a secondary school appeal will be about the classroom usage rate. It is literally how often all the rooms are being used. So it is not unusual for a science lab to be in use for 100% of the possible school day but for a general classroom to be in use for less than this. Above average can mean anything, it is just a set of weasel words, average compared to what?
If the overall usage rate is 95% that means most rooms are being used all the time, if it is 80% then there is quite a lot of leeway in the timetable for extra classes.
The decision at stage 1 of the appeal is not can they take any more pupils but can they take, without prejudicing the school, all the pupils that are appealing. That could be just you or it could be 100 for a popular secondary school. It does not need a genius to work out that the possibilities of one extra being admitted is more than 100.
However the panel can also be minded to say that yes the school can take a few more but not all the 100 in my example. They then hear all the 2nd stages of the appeal which is where you tell the panel all the reasons why your child should have a place at the school. When the panel has heard all the appeals, it agrees in which cases the appellants case for admission outweighs the prejudice to the school. The panel must not compare individual cases when deciding whether the appellants case out weighs that of the school, it is the individual appellant against the school. However where the panel finds there are more cases which outweigh the prejudice than the panel thinks the school can admit, it must then compare the individual cases and uphold those with the strongest case for admission. Where the panel has agreed that say an extra 20 can be admitted without causing prejudice then at least that number must be admitted.
The current system does not have anything to do with where you are on the waiting list (which is the admission arrangements for the school) and in fact panels are actively discouraged from asking about where a person is on the waiting list.

Thanks admission that helps clarify things I think. A couple more questions if you can bear it ?

Re classroom usage - I get what it is, but don't understand why it is especially mentioned in the school's case when I can find no info/stats about it online. Surely if it is an important factor in judging how full a school is, I would be able to find out what the national average was for example? I can easily find out about SEN numbers or pupil/teacher ratios for example.

Re Stage 2 appeal. If the panel decide the school can admit (say) 15 children without prejudice, and 45 are appealing, but (say) only 10 appellant's cases outweigh the school's case, how do they allocate the other 5 places? Do they go back to the waiting list or are the other 35 cases ranked and the 'top' 5 allocated even though their case wasn't strong enough to outweigh the school's?

Re the guidance I quoted - it is not my LA, but one that I found from googling, and it is their current from what I can see. It is West Sussex.

Thanks again

Yes, that does seem to be what West Sussex say currently. I sincerely hope it isn't what their appeal panels actually do. If it is I would strongly recommend a reference to the LGO for anyone losing an appeal in West Sussex.

Some research in 2010 by the University of Lincoln suggested that classroom utilisation in UK secondary schools was around 80%. But to be honest a lot of things get mentioned in school cases purely in an attempt to make a case even though there is little evidence to support them. Many will cite overcrowding in the corridors and suggest an increased risk of accidents, but you will generally find that they have not had any accidents attributable to overcrowding.

Regarding the stage 2 appeal, if the panel think the school can admit another 15 children then all 45 cases outweigh the school's - if they were the only person appealing they would win their appeal on the grounds that no prejudice would be caused. So the 15 with the strongest cases will be admitted. The question then is whether the prejudice for any of the remaining 30 cases outweighs the school's case now that it has already been forced to admit another 15 children and, if so, how many of those should also be admitted.

Thanks prh47bridge - I get how they work out how to admit from appeals now

Just got back from our Stage 1 - took 2 hours! Panel were good - pretty quiet, but good at organising everything. I felt that we as parents certainly got the opportunity to get our points across, and often the school couldn't say much other than 'we feel that..' rather than being able to quote facts and figures. It did feel quite formal, but the school were very calm and reasonable, as were all parents but one, and it was all very civilised - phew!

IMO the parents have shown that there is wriggle room at the school. Now we have to see how much the panel think there is, and hope that our DS's case is strong enough. We go to Stage 2 on thursday...

Yvonne,
Don't know of any national statistics but my large and very full secondary school has a classroom usage of 94% with 100% usage of all the science labs - we actually have a shortage of labs, which has a knock on effect of needing to use general classrooms when they are doing science but not practical work.
I could well believe the 80% that PRH suggested.

Thanks admission . Despite it being in the school's statement, there was no mention of classroom usage during the appeal, so I think it wasn't that strong a point in the first place.
We did get the school to admit that the year they had the best results, they had 21 more children in that year than they are currently intending to admit this Sept, which I am hoping will mean that at least some of those appealing will get in.
I am so grateful to people on here for their help in all this, it really has been invaluable . I was struck by how many parents just turned up today, no papers, no questions; they thought they were just there to hear the LA's case, not try to refute it. Obviously the appeals process in our LA would benefit from some clarity about what the process, is and what parents can do to help their case...
I am just crossing my fingers for Thursday...

prh47bridge Yes the panel did let me sum up - sorry, I left that out from my summary. I feel I did not sum up very well but gave them each a copy of my bullet points which were clearer.

Thanks to you and admission (and everyone else) for your advice. I'll hold fire till I get the letter next week.

PHEW!! just finished our appeal hearing and 'seemed' to go well. Did wonder why one appeal panel member asked DH & I our jobs. I am a SAHM, so she went onto confirm that I was the 'taxi driver then'. Not suer the purpose of that question though, any ideas?? also asked why we had not applied to the international school some 30 miles away (because only got 4 choices and two were taken up with super selective choices). Also asked if we were so committed to our child learning spanish (already does but appealed school only one to do it GCSE were we live) did we not consider a spanish education, I said cos we wanted her to go through the English education system to enable her to benefit when going to university. Seemed a bit harsh actually, though have considered sending her to an international school in Spain for a year but didn't say this.
LEA man asked if he had any questions but he said I had covered all his questions.
After he said we (I) did very well and appeal was based on very specific points rather than distance or siblings, and we (I) covered them thoroughly, even said well done, good presentation of our case. (do they all say this???)
Only down side was at the end when one of panel members said 'Does Dad want to say anything' & DH replied 'No, she does enough talking for the both of us'.
Any feed back greatly appreciated. Now the waiting begins

Well done drivinmecrazy - it sounds as if you did really well. I did an appeal 2 years ago but it was such a traumatic experience that I still find myself reading all these posts and reliving the anguish.

Your appeal sounds similar to mine in that I did all the talking and preparation and DH was there for moral support. He had not had time to prepare as I had and we decided it was better that he didn't make any new points as he had little understanding of what should and should not be said.

We had a few odd questions at ours,too. In the end they didn't seem to make much difference. We appealed because we had DD1 in yr7 at a school 20 miles from home, and in the year between our applications (DD2 is 16 months younger than DD1) the admission criteria were changed and we found ourselves at the bottom of the list. DD2 was given a place at another school 10 miles from DD1's school, but not in the same direction. The oddest question we had was why we had not considered moving DD1 to the school at which DD2 had got a place. That had never really crossed my mind, as I would never have put DD1 through the upheaval if I could have avoided it. In the end it didn't seem to make any difference anyway.

When do you expect to hear if you were successful? We waited 10 days as there were a lot of appeals.

Hopefully within 7 days. Same with my DH, mind you I did enough research for both of us, trying to anticipate questions. Bit miffed when they asked why we weren't appealing grammar school place (em.. cos she didn't score in the top places, rub it in why don't ya!!!)

Fingers crossed for you, then. I hope it's good news.

I used to go running every morning and I'd spend the entire time going through our case and trying to decide which 3 points were the strongest etc. I became completely obsessed with it and I still find it interesting. All the stuff I learned has come in handy though, as I have managed to help two other families to win their appeals since.

driveinmecrazy - No idea why they asked the question about your jobs. Sounds inappropriate to me. Your jobs should have no bearing on the panel's decision. Asking why you hadn't applied to another school also sounds inappropriate - again, I can't see any relevance.

No, not all LA presenting officers say that. Some are nice, others seem to regard it as a personal insult if they lose.

drivinmecrazy glad you felt your appeal went well, even if some of the questions were a little strange. I too can't see the relevance to balancing the prejudice to the school and to your child of what you might do as a job . Well done for you doing all the groundwork. I imagine that it is quite common that if both parents attend the appeal that one does most of the talking, otherwise you'd have to rehearse lol! That last comment sounds like a but of humour which might have been good to end on?

Not so long to wait then till you hear. Everything crossed