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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Appeals for secondary - thread to chat and exchange experiences

125 replies

YvonneCalling · 09/05/2012 09:39

Morning

I thought I would create a space to chat/angst/commiserate/congratulate all those in the school appeals purgatory!

We have a date for our appeal - next Thursday, with our group hearing next Tues. We received the LA's case yesterday, so are ploughing through, trying to think of useful questions and comments.

Am I right in thinking that that the group hearing is the collective chance for parents to show the general case that more children can be admitted, and then the individual hearing is the time to say that your child should be at the head of the queue?

I would love to hear anyone's experiences of what these meetings were like, and also what sort of questions you were asked at the individual meeting, plus when you heard the outcome!

Anyone care to join me on here? Just to say hello, so I don't feel all alone

OP posts:

hackneyLass · 11/05/2012 12:24

Thanks PanelChair and prh47bridge for replies about getting information before the appeal hearing. I just phoned the school: they are adamant that I will not get the information before the appeal hearing and that this is the same for all other people appealing. They suggested that if I arrive a bit early I can ask if the member of staff is available and can give me the information then! The hearing is 20 minutes long so not much scope for a brief adjournment while I absorb the information. All grist to my mill...

PanelChair · 11/05/2012 14:31

That's extraordinary. As I said before, make it plain to the panel that the school have been uncooperative and you have had no time to digest the information they're providing at the hearing. You might also want to think about making a formal complaint, after the hearing.

titchy · 11/05/2012 14:37

Can they go straight to a stage 2 which they are doing?

How can you guarantee the impartiality of the panel?

PanelChair · 11/05/2012 16:51

Who's going straight to stage 2? You need stage 1 to establish whether there is any prejudice to the school - if there isn't, the appeals are allowed at that point. It doesn't sound to me as if Hackneylass's appeal is skipping stage 1, just that they'll be launching into stage 1 with information that Hackneylass ahsn't had a chance to study.

The panel is impartial because that is what it is recruited and trained to be. Appeal panels aren't run by the LEA - they're usually run by the part of the council that manages elections - and members aren't paid by the LEA. They are there to hold the LEA to account for its decisions, to ensure that its decisions have been properly made and that the interests of both the child appealing for the place and the school and the children already in it are fully taken into account.

If it doesn't do all those things, a formal complaint can be made.

mumofjust1 · 11/05/2012 17:00

For various serious reasons, I removed my dd from her previous high school for her own safety, both mental and physical.

She is number on on our nearest high school waiting list. I have been told that this school is over subscribed in year 8 but that I can appeal on the grounds that is would harm my dd more if she wasn't offered a place than it would harm the school if she was.

I'm waiting for the appeal form to come through and was wondering if anyone has done this and been sucessful?

I'm getting more and more worried about how the gap in her education is going to affect her and she is worried about GCSE's.

I'm beginning to think I made a mistake in removing her from her previous school but I honestly didn't think I had any option :(

VivaLeBeaver · 11/05/2012 17:24

Well our appeal was rejected.

Two people I know had theirs upheld for the same school. Both those children had very high scores while dd only just scraped a pass. That shouldn't be taken into consideration at the appeal apparently but I very much get the feeling it was.

Still, end of the road. Dd will have to go to the comp and hopefully not sink.

titchy · 11/05/2012 17:37

Hackneylass' post of 7pm yesterday said it was going straight to stage 2.....

prh47bridge · 11/05/2012 17:49

No, she said there is no group presentation. That doesn't mean they are skipping stage 1. It just means they are doing individual appeals, so each appeal will have a stage 1 and a stage 2.

VivaLeBeaver - If you think that is what the panel did you should take it to the Local Government Ombudsman. If their investigation shows that the panel took into account matters they should have ignored they can recommend a fresh appeal or, in some circumstances, that your child is admitted.

PanelChair · 11/05/2012 22:24

Viva - I agree with prh47bridge. If there is a pass mark for the 11+ then that is the pass mark for appeal purposes too. The panel can't substitute a higher pass mark of its own or second guess whether a chills is bright enough to cope with the curriculum.

PanelChair · 11/05/2012 22:28

Mumofjust1 - your appeal will be on the balance of prejudice/disadvantage to your child in not being admitted and to the school and its existing pupils in admitting one more. In some ways, removing your child from school might not help, because it might seem as if you're pressuring the panel, but you can explain to the panel that that was because her safety was at risk. Do you have any other options?

VivaLeBeaver · 11/05/2012 23:11

Second guessing whether she is bright enough to cope seems to be exactly what they did. There was open talk of "don't you think your child being dyslexic might struggle with the verbal teaching style that is used in a grammar school". And her possibly struggling due to the fact she only scraped a pass was mentioned. I feel increasingly angry about it. She passed the bloody exam even though she's dyslexic, she is on target for Lvl 5 sats even though she's dyslexic.

She got 220 and didn't get in. I know three people who have had their appeals upheld and their kids all got over 240. Their main arguments seem to have been that as their kids are so bright they should get a place. Now I'm happy their argument has worked for them. But I always thought that wasn't a real argument? On the eleven plus forum I read it wasn't a valid argument as it could be argued that any kid who's passed is bright enough to deserve a place.

Well apart from those who are dyslexic and only get 220

Anyway I think I probably need to step away from these threads as it's not doing any good. I certainly don't have the energy to fight any further. But thanks for the advice.

drivinmecrazy · 12/05/2012 00:26

So sorry for you Viva. we are awaiting part 2 of our appeal next Thursday.
For us, we have told DD this is only plan B (Plan A was HIGHLY selective grammar, which we missed by a tiny margin. Plan B our catchment comp highly over subscribed. Plan C goodish school but not for DD.
didn't get plan A, plan b over subscribed, got plan C.
New plan to appeal plan B, half way through and quietly confident cos of waiting lists if appeal not successful.
Plan C will be to try other school, If DD not happy will take her out to go to international school for several terms in Spain where my mum lives till get a place of waiting list at plan B school.
My point is it is never over til you and your child is happy with their placement. there is always a plan Zee.
Good luck and don't settle for less than you know they deserve

mumofjust1 · 12/05/2012 19:22

Thanks panelchair - I really had no choice.

I saw a friend of dd's today who goes to the school I'm appealing for. 2 weeks ago a year 8 child left. I can't understand why dd has not been offered this place?

prh47bridge · 12/05/2012 20:56

It is possible there is a waiting list and someone else is ahead of you on the list. It is also possible that they were actually over PAN so a child leaving would not create a vacancy. However, if they are now under PAN and there is no waiting list they should give the place to you.

I suggest you contact them on Monday and enquire.

mumofjust1 · 12/05/2012 21:09

Prh - dd has been number one on the list since they received our application 6 weeks ago.

I understand that they are over number in year 8, but assumed that as one had left they could accept dd.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud · 12/05/2012 21:21

No, they will only offer your dd a place from the waiting list once numbers have dropped to their admission number. If they are still over that, the fact that a child had left doesn't help you.

prh47bridge · 12/05/2012 21:40

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud is right. However, you can use the fact that Y8 used to have one more child at appeal to suggest that admitting your daughter won't cause too many problems as they've already been coping with that number of pupils.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud · 12/05/2012 21:48

Yes, I was trying to draw a distinction between the appeal (where it is helpful to argue that the school can manage with more pupils than PAN) and the way the waiting list operates, where the school won't admit from
the list if it means going (even further) above PAN.

admission · 13/05/2012 18:33

Hackneylass,
I would have real reservations over the process being followed here. 20 minutes is nowhere near long enough for a full appeal, in which everything is done properly.
What information have you been sent by the school which is about the decision not to admit your child. You should receive before the appeal date ( at least a few days before it) a paper which sets out the admission process that was carried out, why your child did not get a place and why the school cannot take any more pupil. It is certainly not acceptable to just be saying that they have reached PAN. Nor is acceptable for you just to be being given information immediately before the appeal
I would not expect the stage 1 part of the appeal to be any less than 30 minutes with questions from both the appellant and the appeal panel. Then there is stage 2 where you explain your reasons for wanting a place.
I think you need to go to the appeal with a notebook and make clear notes of the information given, the questions asked and the time this all takes, because from what you are saying I suspect this is not going to be done properly.

Original poster

YvonneCalling · 14/05/2012 11:32

VivaLeBeaver Sorry to hear your appeal wasn't succesful. It does sound like things didn't quite go as they should have . Do you hae the energy to take it further, or will you concentrate now on looking for the positives in the school you have been allocated?

hackneylass I hope today goes well. I am still at the school not giving you the info in time, it does sound like grounds for complaint. Let us know how you got on.

happyoverhere have you had ny news yet?

mumofjust1 have you got anywhere with your waiting list question?

drivinmecrazy good luck for Thursday. Not long now

We have our group hearing tomorrow

OP posts:

VivaLeBeaver · 14/05/2012 11:40

I don't see the point in taking it any further so are just going to concentrate on the positives of hte other school. Its hard though when I know the grammar school would have given her a much better chance. I don't see the point in ringing hte ombudsman, the panel will only say that although they asked about her coping, the fact she only just passed, etc I'm sure they will stick together and that wasn't the influencing factor in their decision.

Original poster

YvonneCalling · 14/05/2012 11:43

Couple more questions for experts/parents who have already done this...

We have our group hearing tomorrow - 40+ parents. Will the Panel ask lots of questions or will it mainly be up to us parents to challenge the LA's arguments that the school is full - only I think I will feel rather intimidated doing that in front of so many people, and am quite nervous!

We have the school's case, and to our eye, it looks like the year group could take an extra 4 (to match number of children that will leave year 11 this year), plus another 4, which would take the school total number of students to the published PAN x5, as there are fewer than PAN in current years 9 and 10. We are suggesting that as the school with have this PANx5 in 5 years, they may as well have them now, although it will mean that the incoming year 7 will have 8 over PAN. Does that seem reasonable? School size is 1600, so huge anyway...

Currently total children/total number of form groups gives a average form group size of 28, so saying that 8 of the 12 yr 7 form groups could take an extra child doesn't seem so bad, does it? School is highly performing and getting even better despite large numbers of kids, and Ofsted have not raised H&S concerns about overcrowding although of course the school say they are full.

Anything else we need to think about?

Wibble!

OP posts:

Original poster

YvonneCalling · 14/05/2012 11:45

VivaLeBeaver. Any chance of waiting list? Maybe you can sell it to your DD that she will be one of the brightest in her school, rather than 'just' average in a grammar -it might be better for her self-esteem long term anyway?

OP posts:

VivaLeBeaver · 14/05/2012 11:48

No chance on the waiting list. 6 children would have to leave before the first on the waiting list would get in. Noone has ever got in on the waiting list.

Yes, we talked in the hearing about whether been at the top of a comp would be better than being at the bottom of a Grammar in the appeal. Knowing dd I feel that been bottom of a Grammar would encourage her to work harder, strive to improve, etc. Wheras if she sees other people drifting along in a comp she may be inclined to join them. Plus I'm concerned that if she's struggling in a comp the school may not realise this is down to dylexia and may just write her off as a bit dim.

mummytime · 14/05/2012 11:59

VivalaBeaver how much have you actually talked to the Comp? Have you talked to the SENCo? Have you discussed how grouping and setting work. Have you discussed what they do to encourage their brighter pupils?
I also think you made a huge mistake in not letting her have extra time for the 11+, I know for my children that extra time can make a huge difference in how well they do.
I know lots of very highly achieving people who didn't get into grammars at the 11+. Some people find their rhythm later, and the Comp may even offer your DD opportunities she would never get at the grammar.

Not getting through an appeal can be very disheartening, but is a time to regroup and move on.

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