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Secondary education

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Sutton Grammar School - Why all the secrecy if they have nothing to hide?

115 replies

incandecent · 26/01/2012 20:28

I understand that no grammar school can guarantee a place before the official deadline of 1 March 2012. However, does anyone have any idea why Sutton Grammar School are refusing to publish the results of boys who have not passed the exam? I have had a series of most infuriatingly patronizing and evasive replies from their registrar who blankly refuses to honestly answer specific questions. If anyone is in the same position as me, I have been in touch with the School Admissions Adjudicator who says that Sutton Grammar are not only permitted but encouraged to provide parents with information about the results before parents apply to other schools. Does anyone have an explanation for their behaviour? One is tempted to think that their selection process is secretive enough to be unfairly discriminatory.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 29/01/2012 14:36

I am afraid your own grasp of the relevant law is shaky to say the least. Your most recent post is riddled with inaccuracies.

From later this year grammar schools will be required to publish the results of selection tests before the deadline for applications. However, under the current Admissions Code this is a "should", which means it is recommended but not compulsory. Sutton is by no means the only grammar school to conduct its tests after the deadline for applications. It is not ideal but they have not broken any rules. They will, however, have to work to a different timetable for their tests for boys wanting to start in 2013.

Their letter is absolutely correct in saying that passing the exam does not guarantee a place. They are required to make that clear to parents. If the number of children passing the exam is greater than the number of places available they must allocate places in line with their admission criteria.

Note that the new admissions code merely requires schools to inform parents of the outcome of selection tests prior to the applications deadline. That could be interpreted as simply meaning they need to inform parents whether their child has passed or failed rather than publishing the individual marks.

Contrary to your assertion you cannot obtain data about the results of successful applicants under the Freedom of Information Act. That is personal information. At best you can get aggregated data, so for example you may be able to find out the average marks of those who passed. You certainly cannot find out the marks of individual candidates.

It is true that Sutton would have to respond to a Subject Access Request for the examiners comments (if any) and your son's marks. However, the Data Protection Act gives them much longer to respond to such requests than for other types of Subject Access Request. This is so that candidates in exams cannot use the Data Protection Act to find out their results early. So the school is perfectly entitled to refuse to respond to your Subject Access Request (if you have made one) until March. By the way, if the examiners have made comments on the exam script Sutton should either blank out your child's answers or copy the examiners' comments into a separate document before giving them to you, so you still won't get to see your child's answers.

You seem to persist in viewing this as some vast conspiracy by Sutton Grammar School to fiddle the results in order to deprive your son of a place. I can see absolutely no evidence of this.

Even if they were to give you your son's marks there is absolutely nothing you can do with them at this stage. You cannot appeal until he has been refused admission. That won't happen until March.

gazzalw · 30/01/2012 16:36

It's all gone quiet so hoping that you were just having a bad day Incandescent...... it gets to us all but I think the thing is to try to rise above it...easier said than done......

Ours is not to reason why?!

PushyDad · 30/01/2012 17:42

Can you imagine what Parents Evening would be like? What do you mean DC is doing fine? What do you mean by 'fine'? Why won't you elaborate? Are other children doing better than fine? Why are you being so vague? :)

ATruthUniversallyAcknowledged · 30/01/2012 18:05

PushyDad - from that last post I don't think you're quite as pushy as you previously thought Grin

PushyDad · 30/01/2012 19:01

ATruth - The OP has kind of made me feel quite a wimp. To make up for it I'm going to complain to DC's school tonight. I'm not sure about what yet.

dlbp · 31/01/2012 14:48

The grammar schools all have their own admissions process and criteria which you are well aware of when applying for your child to sit the 11+ exam at the said school. Therefore, why all the questioning after they tell you whether your child is "of selective ability" for that school?? We know the process and we know there is no guarantee of a place until March 1st . Not a lot we can do about this. Personally, I think that many local comprehensives are more suspect than the grammar schools in their ever changing catchment areas and the way they deal with their admissions. At least the grammar schools make it clear from the start. To be honest I was chuffed to bits for my DC when DC had passed to said grammar schools. Yes, we are waiting until 1st March to know if guarantee of place but we knew the rules at the start! If he doesn't get any grammar school place, we are then into the dodgy world of comprehensive postcode lottery.

PushyDad · 31/01/2012 14:56

The OP originally asked 'does anyone have any idea why Sutton Grammar School are refusing to publish the results of boys who have not passed the exam?'

Is it possible that if there were to do this they will at the same time reveal who HAS passed ahead of March 1st? Just a thought.

Colleger · 31/01/2012 15:05

I don't get the OP's point. Are you expecting to have a rejection before offers day. Why would they do that as then other parents could work out if their children had got in by not having a rejection letter. Everyone else has to be patient!

dlbp · 31/01/2012 15:17

"Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet"

bruffin · 31/01/2012 15:39

Is it possible that if there were to do this they will at the same time reveal who HAS passed ahead of March 1st? Just a thought

They have published the results of who passed and who failed and it looks like op knows her ds has failed but wants to know how much by etc
from op's earlier post.

They disregard this advice and hold their exam in November 2011, notifying parents on 17 January if their children have passed or failed. The school says they do not guarantee a place to children who have passed.

This thread was started on 26th jan

PushyDad · 31/01/2012 16:38

Hi bruffin

I didn't think that GS were allowed to give such feedback before March 1st. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up.

prh47bridge · 31/01/2012 19:43

Selective schools are encouraged to give the outcome (pass or fail) before the deadline for admission applications so that parents don't waste a preference on a school where their child has no chance of getting a place. From this year that becomes compulsory.

But I agree that the OP's complaint about the timing of the exam is irrelevant to her original complaint, which seems to be that she wants to know her son's score and see her son's paper so that she can personally check that the examiners have got it right and her son hasn't been the victim of a conspiracy to keep him out of this school.

toutlemonde · 31/01/2012 19:51

So according to the new rules coming in, and the current guidance that they should let applicants know, are Tiffin being a bit crap by not revealing pass / fail before March 1st?

I was under the impression that we would never find out either pass, fail or actual point scores for Tiffin, only whether our DC had been allocated a place at the end of it all.

prh47bridge · 31/01/2012 21:04

Yes they are a bit but they are not particularly unusual. They will have to change for the next admissions round.

If you make a subject access request under the Data Protection Act they will have to tell you whether your child passed or failed and what marks they were awarded.

toutlemonde · 31/01/2012 21:15

Thanks again prh47bridge, I won't be going down the DPA route as its just idle curiosity really.

Before looking at this thread I hadn't even realised there was a pass / fail mark aside from the score above which you are offered a place.

PushyDad · 01/02/2012 09:25

I suspect that they have a minimum standard hence the pass/fail and if you meet this minimum standard then whether you get a place depends on how many above you in the rankings accept the offer.

sandyballs · 01/02/2012 09:37

Out of interest, what do you believe are the 'good' comps round that area and which are the 'bad'.

gazzalw · 01/02/2012 15:57

I thought most of the comps in Sutton are good?

CustardCake · 01/02/2012 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gazzalw · 01/02/2012 17:25

Oh dear.....yes, know a family (parents have just split up) where the Dad has moved to a flat specifically to be literally between two of the desirable comps in Sutton - but who can blame him....

CustardCake · 01/02/2012 17:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blu · 01/02/2012 20:47

gazz - the address the CB goes to is one of the deciding factors in our borough...

RE selective results in advance of CAF deadline "Selective schools are encouraged to give the outcome (pass or fail) before the deadline for admission applications so that parents don't waste a preference on a school where their child has no chance of getting a place. " From the pov of someone who has not listed any selective schools, there is a way in which that gives those who do a double bite at the cherry. Lots and lots of people will effectively be 'wasting' a preference by listing a school which (whether they might be expected to know it or not) they have no chance of getting a place. Isn't there a case for all the schools and all the applications being on the same basis? You list your preferences in the genuine order you prefer, and you get the school which offers you a place (on whatever criteria) whihc is highest up your list. Otherwise 'selective' parents could end up having made 4 selective choiuces in our area (Sutton grammaras and Graveney - possibly 5 if you include the selction by music or sports scholarship at Kingsdale), and then if none of those come off, get another 6 preferences in the open CAF.

Also, knowing your child had passed but with no guarantee of a place sounds like a tortuous guessing game and leaves you not much further forward if you were secure that your child was a 'passer'.

gazzalw · 01/02/2012 21:05

Don't worry the CB is going to the Dad!

Yes, agree totally - we are in a situation where we know DS has passed three 11+ exams but we have still been advised he might not get a place which seems unbelievable. If it is indeed the case that you can pass 3/4/5 selective exams but still not score highly enough to get a place then Sad what is the point of knowing by the end of October -it just makes the agony of waiting twice as bad/disagreeable/unfair.....

If we had had to choose 6 other preferences on the CAF then goodness knows what we would have put down - the new Michaela Academy Grin!

kla73 · 01/02/2012 22:37

We are in Surrey (on the border with Sutton) and with only 3 choices I think it is reasonable to know if you are at least in with a chance at the selectives before you 'waste' a preference or 2.

Blu · 02/02/2012 10:22

Aha - we get 6 preferences in 'the smoke'.

3 is a bit tight - why don't they just give you more preferences, then the whoe timetable wouldn't be so squashed in the first term of Yr 6?

The earlier the tests take place, the less indicative they are of future potential, IMO, so the least valuable.