Sutton Grammar School - Why all the secrecy if they have nothing to hide?

[incandecent]

I understand that no grammar school can guarantee a place before the official deadline of 1 March 2012. However, does anyone have any idea why Sutton Grammar School are refusing to publish the results of boys who have not passed the exam? I have had a series of most infuriatingly patronizing and evasive replies from their registrar who blankly refuses to honestly answer specific questions. If anyone is in the same position as me, I have been in touch with the School Admissions Adjudicator who says that Sutton Grammar are not only permitted but encouraged to provide parents with information about the results before parents apply to other schools. Does anyone have an explanation for their behaviour? One is tempted to think that their selection process is secretive enough to be unfairly discriminatory.

Well, in the interests of professionalism, she couldn't possibly comment on that but waves pompoms at admissionslady anyway.

incandecent you seem determined to find a conspiracy where there is none. Why not just wait until March 1st and do what needs to be done then? Which might include building bridges with the staff at Sutton Grammar.

Personally, I think it would just be just too much to allow parents to see exam scripts - there is so much that is subjective that every single parent whose DS didn't pass the English paper could think there is right to appeal - it's the how long is a piece of string argument...The school has to be able to draw a line in the sand somehow.....

Also, failing by a couple of marks, could be purely down to carelessness or not finishing - is there anything to be gained from tormenting yourself thinking "what might have been?" You are interested to know but you will find out in 5 weeks....If your DS has failed by only a few marks you should know that it's less about what they don't know and more about the execution of the tests - that can be remedied without knowing which questions he got wrong etc.....

In an ideal world it would be totally transparent but I kind of get AdmissionLady's argument although given that many more boys pass than there are places (and therefore one couldn't think one's DS is guaranteed a place), can't see why it would harm to let us know how many have taken the exam and passed. Wilson's do but WCGS don't either....But how come Nonsuch gives all the information - that's what is puzzling.

It is the wide variation in the execution or interpretation of the rules that questioned but short of taking the debate to a Court of Law not sure what progress will be made!

We have found AdmissionsLady to be very thorough generally and it is not really our place to question her unless of course we are Admissions Person and have inside knowledge that prospective parents aren't allowed to be privvy to...

In a way we are all in the same boat as we all have a massive ? over our DCs future schooling but we all have to wait till 1st March (or later if they end up on waiting lists etc...) - time is passing quite quickly and we will be there before we know it.....As soon as 1/2 Term is upon us waiting time is virtually up....

The school is doing nothing wrong or even particularly unusual. Many grammar schools withhold results until offers are made. That is changing as the new admissions code, which will apply to admissions for 2013, says that parents should be informed of the results of admission tests by 31st October, so that parents can avoid wasting a preference on a grammar school when the child has no chance of getting a place.

You say "the law allows students and parents to see examination papers". I'm afraid you are wrong. Exam scripts are specifically exempt from the Data Protection Act. You are entitled to see the examiner's comments, if any. You are also entitled to see your child's marks but the school has longer to respond to a subject access request for marks than other types of request, so you still won't get your child's marks until March even if you make a formal request. But you are not entitled to see your child's answers.

The primary purpose of an 11+ exam is to determine whether your child is of grammar school standard. It is not to provide information allowing you to correct your child's mistakes.

I presume you believe your child has been failed incorrectly. If that is the case you are entitled to appeal after admission has been refused, i.e. in March. Given adequate evidence, the appeal panel is allowed to decide that your son is of grammar school standard even if he has been correctly marked and did not pass the exam.

"I want to see the specific mistakes my child made in an exam so that I can do something about them."

Why? How many more 11+ exams are you planning for your chid to sit, given that they are all finished? Seeing the exam script is a pointless exercise.

TBH, it sounds like you are just after a fight. Do any of the other schools give you the exam script? Why are you singling out Sutton Grammar?

From memory, Wisons tell (or used to) you the mark your son got and the pass mark if they fail but not if they have passed. DS2 passed so I don't know what he got (it would be useful to know whether he was 1st or 324th for example). Wallington used to tell you the mark they got if they failed and split this between the sections too which was useful but only because it was sat well before other schools.

Given all the exams are over, it is pointless dwelling on it. They would have to have stuffed up monumentally on the marking for your son to actually have achieved a grade that would secure him a place.

Incandescent
You are mixing up different issues.

It is the responsibility of your son's current school to assess your son's progress and feedback to you.

A school to which you have applied can select on whatever basis they like. If you don't agree with their selection process and think there is some wild conspiracy to keep out your son, why on earth would you like your son to attend such an unscrupulous institution?

The stress and desperation in the Op's posts do make me ever grateful that we live in an exclusively Comprehensive area where my DC can find their own way gradually rather than face this once shot chance at 11.

I don't want to de-rail into a comp vs selective bun fight and i do completely accept that others have a different opinion. I just know what will would be right for mine when we get there ...and having stressy exams and living with a stress bunny mum wouldn't be it

I used to teach in Sutton and the stress each year was really horrible to watch..great for those who 'suceed' with ease but tough on those who try and want to pass but can't.

shaking my pom poms too!!

Especially at your post truth because my the school I used to teach at used to be the one that quite a few of these children ended up at.

Your 'Best School Ever' comment is really important because there were a hell of a lot of big chips on shoulders all round Sutton.

my

Just a minor correction to my earlier post - I should have said "Exam scripts are specifically exempt from the subject access provisions of the Data Protection Act". They are subject to all other parts of the DPA.

youngermother1 - thanks for posting the stanardisation link, it explains it well.

incandescent - I'm sure you will pursue your fight against perceived injustice but as you've been advised by lots of wise posters above there is nothing to be gained and, unless you are very good at hiding your feelings, a risk that your son will think he has failed you and that his time in education will be wasted if he doesn't go the school you want him to.

Yes, thanks youngermum, v informative

Incandescent, did your DS take any of the other super-selective exams? What is your particular gripe against Sutton? WCGS for Boys was no more illuminating in its results feedback.....

By the way, MigratingCoconuts, is it not true that as a Borough, Sutton is lucky in that virtually all of its secondary schools are well above average and highly sought after????

incandescent - surely the school couldnt show you what your son had got wrong as that would mean a copy of the questions or at least some of them circulating in the area and they keep them under very tight wraps.

And can you imagine poor old admissionslady dealing with 1600 of such requests? Madness.

If you have prepared them with tests and suchlike you will already know what their weaknesses are with these specific tests and what does it matter as they won't be doing any again as they will either be going to your local comp or doing common entrance.

By the way, MigratingCoconuts, is it not true that as a Borough, Sutton is lucky in that virtually all of its secondary schools are well above average and highly sought after????

I take nothing away from the quality of the school themselves (and if I appeared to do so, then I do apologise) ...I worked in one and and I was very proud to do so. It turned out well rounded students with a good world view and an exciting range of experiences. I believe that it still does.

(ps...as selective schools, a good half of them should be well above average )

I think I know which one you are talking about - DS has applied there too!

Sorry, everyone, I should have explained the facts.

Sutton Grammar School are advised by the government to publish their admission results ahead of the application deadline for secondary state schools, which this year was 31 October 2011.

They disregard this advice and hold their exam in November 2011, notifying parents on 17 January if their children have passed or failed. The school says they do not guarantee a place to children who have passed.

Their notification letter claims they are not permitted to publish any further information. When asked who or what does not permit them to publish information, they reply: the Schools Adjudicator.

When contacted, the Schools Adjudicator says that this is not the case, in fact, they encourage them to do so.

The school then replies that results will be published on the day after offers are made to successful applicants (which is 1 March for all state secondary schools). The school will, however, not release information about the results of those who have been successful and no copies of examination scripts.

Parents are entitled to copies of all personal information held by a pubic body about their child (if under 12 years of age) under the provisions of the Data Protection Act and, unfortunately for Sutton Grammar, examination results are considered personal information. This Act excludes the right to obtain copies of examination scripts but entitles you to copies of examiner's comments, even if they are made on examination scripts. After further research, it now seems that one can also obtain the data (excluding personal information like names and addresses) about the results of successful applicants under the Freedom of Information Act.

Irrespective of your opinion of my stress levels, every single parent should be aware of the law. My son has nothing to gain or lose from this debate but I do think that when next year two thousand boys line the streets of Sutton to sit the Sutton Grammar Exam, this may be my insignificant contribution to their fair access to tax-funded grammar school places.

Incadecent I don't think any grammars did their exams and results before 31st October 2011. The changes in dates are due to come into effect for 2013 admissions.

Wilsons did. They changed their exam date last year. I know DS2 passed but not where in the pecking order he appears.

Incandescent, you seem to have changed your mind as to what you home to achieve - is it to help your son "fix" his mistakes or "My son has nothing to gain or lose from this debate but I do think that when next year two thousand boys line the streets of Sutton to sit the Sutton Grammar Exam, this may be my insignificant contribution to their fair access to tax-funded grammar school places."

Because I honestly can not work out what your problem is.

You have put your case powerfully Incandescent but as I previously commented, I think that it seems as if the individual schools interpret the laws differently - not sure why.

Certainly know that various friends with DSs who (just) failed Wilson's 11+ were quite happy to know that they had only failed by a few points on the grounds that it was encouraging for Sutton and Tiffin 11+ exams......

I do find the whole notion of theoretically guaranteeing a place by revealing results just doesn't wash though - and how come it's feasible for Nonsuch to do this but not the others (although they do have the proximity to the catchment aread to factor in)? But then I'm not a school registrar and feel pretty sure that they have an unenviable task twixt 11+ exam date and the beginning of the next academic year!

As I've said elsewhere, the one positive thing is that the longer we muse on these issues, the closer we're getting to the 1st March - less than 5 weeks to go now everyone!