Saint albans boys v haberdashers boys

[bulletpoint]

does anyone have any experience of these schools ? And would they be a good second choice to harrow school ?

We are not a showy or privileged family just a completely eccentric normal middle class family. We earn a good wage in comparison with Mr and Mrs average but it all goes on school fees so we are probably less showy than those who on paper earn less than us.
I genuinely dont believe Win Coll is about showy privilege and as you said St Pauls definitely isn't which is why we loved it. i do agree that others are but does it make any difference to a child's future out comes? We looked at Eton I felt that it was ridiculous. No one in the 21st century wanders around in tail coats eating a take away pizza (I saw the promotional video) but I am unconvinced that it harms society in general. I feel the same about Harrow who wears boaters for God sake? But this is all about personal choice. My friend sent her DC's to Christ Hospital which did does take lots of children from less privileged back grounds but in my opinion it was positively groaning under the weight of meaningless ritual and a completely ridiculous uniform. I struggle to accept this but I know that some people like all this stuff. In my ideal world I would keep uniform very simple and dump showy privilege. Ultimately we cant have everything no school is perfect we just have to hope that wherever we send our DC's the positive aspects out significantly weigh the negatives and most important of all that they are happy.

Happygardening - the very fact that you looked round Eton as a possibility for your son, precludes you from being 'a normal middle class family'. Next you'll be telling me you are the squeezed middle. How on earth do you reconcile the way Winchester distinguishes its scholars (in college) from its full fee payers (in commoner houses)? It labels boys on joining and seems to have not accepted the notion of egalitarianism. As a metaphor for an ability to accept that things change, Winchester's "college/commoner" distinction on joining is a worrying one. At St Albans scholars are not revealed to anyone.

Most Collegers get 5% off their school fees at Win and that is changing to zero after this year so there is no distinction. Eton is a measly 10% so again it is not the poor boys versus the rich boys. Thankfully it is an honour to be a scholar at these schools and the other boys are respectful of their peers abilities, just as a College boy would be respectful of sporting prowess or musical talent. Boys don't care about who wears what - they are more interested in how to wind up the Don or sneak off to the local girls school!

Oh and I looked round Eton when OH was on the minimum wage. :)

Personally I find it distasteful when a parent sending a child to an independent school mocks another independent school. You may feel sending DS to St Albans is not privileged, elitist or posh but the vast majority of the country would find it snooty and unnecessary. One persons "norm" is another's "dream"!

Or is it a case of fox and the grapes?

I do the decent thing in being embarrassed about my decision to buy education for my children. And I try to make my purchase in a way that's quietly respectful and mindful of the fact that it's elitist, archaic and morally questionable.

MrsJAlfredPrufrock - reading your comment above about what you think of private education - if those are your views, why on earth do you choose to send your children to a private school?

MrsJ, think she has the moral high-ground because she pays less for her child's education, or at least she assumes she does!

Colleger - Only someone arriviste could put it in such vulgar terms. The choice of school reflects my tension between buying privilege (which I don't care to do) and buying into a rounded education (which I do care about, very much). I'm very clear I don't want to be involved in a school that perpetuates class-riddled nonsense from a bygone era. I agree it's an imperfect moral high ground. I hope you aren't going to cheapen the argument now with evidence of Eton's generous bursaries (perhaps your son is a privileged recipient) because aren't they in a position to do that as a result of a history of revolting and unquestioned privilege?

I'm not sure 93% of the population would view St Albans as a well-rounded education. Your arguments fall flat and your comments about these establishments are very ignorant. For one that mocks those who post with grammatical errors, you seem intellectually stilted if your views are based on a few newspaper articles or outdated perception. Thankfully my boys grow up in an environment where they seek first-hand evidence before making a judgement.

"I do the decent thing in being embarrassed about my decision to buy education for my children"
Im sure that will lots of comfort to those children in sink comps in Peckham!

And what is this "class-riddled nonsense from a bygone era" that you think is being perpetuated by these schools?

So the scholars at Win Coll live in a different house but there are scholars in all my DS's classes. If you knew anything about Win Coll you would know that the school is very house centric he does not have much contact wth scholars outside of lesson/games/clubs/activities which take up most of the day. But he also only has limited contact with the commoners in the other nine houses outside of those times.
If I look at Eton I'm not middle class. Anyone can look at Eton you just ring up and make an appointment they dont ask you what class you are. In this free country we live in you can look at anything it doesn't indicate support or dislike. It was an intersting expereince we had always beieved that Win Coll was right for my DS and looking at Eton only confirmed this.

When my DH was at Prep school they got a half day holiday when a boy won a scholarship. They got a full day holiday if a boy won a Winchester scholarship. Winchester then was the academic school - with its entrance papers considerably harder than Common Entrance.

The E and W scholarships are ridiculous and more like A'level standard. I'm not holding out any hope but if he did I'd be going on holiday!

Colleger : What on earth did the prep school head mean when he said you weren't Eton parents?

Happygardening : how odd that the scholars are kept so separate. I don't know why they don't scatter them among the other houses and do away with the commoner and college distinction. Elitism within the already elite (intellectually) is to my mind peculiar and discouraging to those who may be brighter on another day/haven't been coached so extensively for the entrance papers etc etc. It's a little like having an Oxford college for students who have 17 or more GcSEs at A* including Latin and Greek.

MrsJAlfredPrufrock, it may be something to do with the original statutes of the school that scholars are in their own house (the original school buildings at both Eton and Winchester).

The old head had a prejudicial view of the place. I don't care if he doesn't think we're Eton parents. I'm not going to the school after all!

I'm not in favour of College or the robes the boys have to wear but if DS gets one then it is such an honour and achievement that he says he will take up the offer. But, the odds are slim so I probably won't need to worry about him wearing a robe!

MrsJ I think you either deliberately or accidentally missed my point my DS shares lessons and all activities with the scholars ok not the boarding aspect but I doubt you son at St Albans has more time with the scholars in his school unless he takes them home with him at night. The scholars are viewed as the power house, bench mark of accademic excellence setting a path for the rest of the boys to follow and aspire too. In another life I was very serious about riding there is nothing more exciting and challenging than watching and riding along side the best riders in the world I felt no resentment when they won and its the same for my DS he says there's no resentment between them.
The name commoners may sound old fashioned and patronizing to those not at the school but my DS certainly does not feel patronised it's just a term not a classification.

Happygardening - I have inside knowledge of scholars at my sons' school and I can assure you they aren't viewed as the power house or setting any path for the rest. Their status is unknown. I think the school value all their pupils and will help them all find their thing, regardess of their fee status. It's really quite ridiculous for system to do otherwise.

The Eton College/Harrow/Winchester College arrangement is entirely dependent upon the aquiesence of parents: you sign your sons up to genuflect to the nonsense, without actually knowing how they feel.

SA achieve better A level results (ave A level points per pupil) than Harrow and Winchester and they are only v narrowly beaten by Eton (nb I know Winchester don't do A levels and have instead opted for Pre U but their results have been very closely studied by the Sutton Trust and translated into A level points here

SA also beat Harrow at Hockey, Rugby, Cricket and cross country. They also priduce brilliant musicians, physicists, artists, actors, mathematicians, rock stars, sportsmen, etc. They also offer Latin and Ancient Greek. AND they offer polyester blazers.

Moving away from the public school debate and back to the actual topic :) we chose Habs despite being local to St A.

At the open day St A came over as a bit too serious for my son's liking. When we went to the Habs open day my son immediately fell in love with the extensive grounds and impressive buildings. Then there were the presentations by the various clubs like water polo.
I don't have any real experience of St A or Harrow so U won't even try to compare the schools. All I can is that we are happy with Habs.

I have read St Albans website I notice that at about Win Col 51% got A/A in the wisely acknowledge much harder Pre U. It was 25% at St A they also state that 3/4 got A/A at Win Coll it was 79% added into this nearly 40% of Win Coll last year went onto Oxbridge and I think just under 10% to the Ivy League. As far as I'm aware only Westminster got more A*'s. I think your find that the boys have less UCAS points because they only do three subjects but universities now want quality not quantity.
I don't agree with re the scholars we need people to set a standard to aspire there is nothing wrong with excellence. It has always existed Leonardo Mozart Einstein we need people To stand out from the crowd people we can admire and look up to.

How on earth can you say SA gets better results than Win Coll!!! It may get better results than Harrow but Harrow is fairly unselective.

I am bemused that you have zero experience of these schools an yet seem to think they are some sort of ridiculous circus shows. At the end of the day they are just schools. It's only five years of a boys life, a small proportion and the same camaraderie goes on at these schools as they do elsewhere. The facilities may differ, there may be some traditions that continue but every school has these. I just don't understand why you get so worked up about it when it shouldn't even be in your thoughts. If my son had such a perfect life and was at the best school ever and clearly had the best mother as your son does then Eton wouldn't even be on my radar!

Meant to write; widely acknowledged much harder Pre u.
I've also done a back of an envelope calculation from St A website and noticed that approx. only 10% went to Oxbridge that the same as my DS1 comp! So i'm afraid you claim that St A has better A level results really does not stand up to close scrutiny.
Win Coll only has guidelines for uniform; "dark trousers" 'white shirt" "dark blazer/tweed jacket" etc. So I sorry I'm not able to pander to you enormous prejudice MrsJ but I have to tell you that most parents are sensible and go to John Lewis etc. and buy the practical polyester blazer.
There is no requirement for commoners to "genuflect" to anyone and I have not signed my son to anything without knowing how he felt. My DS like all Wykamists is a very intelligent and thoughtful and thus was able to understand even at a young age that a distinction is made between scholars and commoners but he is secure enough in his own ability not to be bothered by it.
And finally your comment "regardless of their fee status" there is no financial advantage of being a scholar or commoner all pay the same unless they have received a bursary which are given to both.
I would not dream of making comments about St Albans a school I had never even heard of before reading your comments and I think before you make any more incorrect comments about Eton Win Coll Harrow etc you need to take that chip off your shoulder and ensure you statements are acurate.

Happygardening 71% of pupils achieved A or A grade at A level at St Albans, not 25%. And I acknowledge the pre U is of greater difficulty than an A level. But this is why UCAS has awarded the top grade of Pre U a higher number of UCAS points on its tariff than the top grade at A level. In fact even the second top grade at PreU attracts more UCAS points than A grade at A level. So its superiority is undisputed and adjusted for.

But the fact remains:

St Albans UCAS tariff score is 477 points per pupil
Winchester College UCAS score is 472 points per pupil

SA aren't pushy about Oxbridge. Perhaps they could do more to encourage their pupils to apply because not many do. If you are fussed about Oxbridge grooming, I agree St A wouldn't be a sensible choice.

I actually think Eton is an excellent school, ditto Winchester (I just find their showy privilege off putting, as you now know). I think St A's is an excellent school. Sadly I think Harrow is not an excellent school.