Kingsdale v's Dunraven

[Iamaworrywart]

Hi All,

If you had to choose between Kingsdale and Dunraven as a secondary school for your child which would you choose? They are my first and second choice state school preferences, but now I'm not sure which one I'm really hoping to get .

The Kingsdale admissions system is a law unto itself. Search for Kingsdale on The East Dulwich Forum and you will find several long and convoluted threads from frustrated local parents trying to get their heads round the idea that this state comprehensive can a) be selective and b) have a lottery system for admissions. This is not fair on local families for the simple fact that the lottery is being played in a bubble. Are there, for instance, any good secondary schools in Wandsworth that I can apply to, as a Southwark resident, which don't admit on distance from the school?

Hiya bigtilly fancy seeing you here!

Yes there are schools in Wandsworth that you can apply to from SOuthwark - Graveney for one. It is quite common for kids to come from other boroughs to Graveney.

Graveney is super selective though isn't it? Are there any others? Where would I find out about them? tia ...

Ernest Bevin I think take the first 65 or so based on test results. I also think Burntwood do too.

Chestnut Grove give spaces to those with an aptitude in Art or Languages. ADT to kids with apitude in technology. As far as I know these spaces are not restricted to location.

I am in north Southwark and will be applying to Kingsdale for my ds2 who will be moving in 2012. He will also be applying forthe maths scholarship. If we were lucky enough to get a place we will probably move closer to the school (as we are in private rental)

We do have a local school in North Southwark but that also operates a lottery system for admissions and does not operate a sibling policy. It does have an inner or outer catchment area though.

Seems to me that Southwark operate social engineering by sending kids all over the borough and there's no guarantee that you will get your local school - it's simply luck.

In the current year 6 of my ds2s secondary school about a third have been allocated to an 'improving school' in a less pleasant area of the borough. It may well be improving but I would not be happy for my ds to travel through parts of London where there knife crime and shootings are a regular occurence.

Nightmare.

There were plans to build a new secondary school north of the borough as literally thousands of new properties being built (not sure whether they are inhabited by families though more likely international property speculators and rich city types) but these plans have been shelved.

I think most parents just want a decent local school for their kids to attend and not the scrum that currently exists.

Also with some operating catchment and some lottery it's a completely unlevel playing field.

There is also a very popular school in a neighbouring borough which ahs now linked itself to a failing primary school so chances of getting a place there are even less than previously.

"Also with some operating catchment and some lottery it's a completely unlevel playing field".

Exactly.

And getting your child a secondary school place should not be so convoluted and stressful. Ffs. Especially when you are not asking for all that much.

Most of the girls in DD's class have been offered a place at a v large Lewisham girls' school, so it seems Southwark can't get it together to offer places within the borough (although if 'placs within the borough' meant the girls' school in south Southwark, I think most of the would be happier with the Lewisham option.

Sincity it's a shame it's like that in the North too. I thought that with Bacon's and COLA (presumably one of those is the one you referred to) at least if you lived nearby you had the chance of a decent school in Southwark.

Has anyone challenged Lord Harris of Carpetright as to why all his schools (with the exception of the Crystal Palace one I think) are still so shit?

oops, 'places' and 'them'.

Sincity I can guess the school with the new primary phase. According to our rejection letter they had 1757 applications for the 165 places, and I think 60 of the 165 go to the children from the primary phase if they want them.

The last place offered in DD's band was to someone 814 metres from the school, and we are 2054 metres away, so I don't think our position as reserve no. 38 (and I assume that's in her band, of which there are 9) is going to get us very far.

Still we got our 2nd choice, which was realistically our 1st choice, so we are very happy and very glad we moved out of Southwark.

LW - ds1 goes to Bacons but again we were very lucky tho live close.

COLA operates catchment and not too keen now - liked it when we looked round about four years ago.

Ha! I can trump that. Six years ago when we applied to Aske's, first year of current admissions policy - 2500 applicants for 200 places. Most oversubscribed school in England. For my son's band we'd have needed to live 140 metres from the school to get a place on proximity. That wouldn't take you from the Jerningham Road site to the Pepys Road site.

Commiserations to all of you going through this now.

But the admissions policies for Southwark secondary schools are hardly anything to do with Southwark anymore are they ?
I say hardly because I think there is some requirement ( prhbridge wiil know ) that Southwark ensures that the policies are clear ,open ,understandable - haha ,have you seen the admissions policy for the Crystal Palace Harris Academy ?
But all Southwark's secondary schools are Faith ,Foundation or Academy and as such they determine their own admissions policies .

Yes but isn't it down to Southwark to make the final allocations so I thought they still had some influence on the final outcome. Individual schools may choose pupils but I thought that Southwark made final decision.

If that isn't the case then the system is even more flawed with no-one to be held accountable for the mess we have. (well it gives central and local government a let out)

Sincity, No its not down to Southwark. They admister the admissions policies of the schools which (for academies, foundation, faith and so on) are set by the school themselves. They have no influence on allocations; only the Governing Body do and they have to comply with the code on admissions set by law (which gives some leeway as to how to arrange yourselves).

As I mentioned above, if it was proximity only (withou or without banding) (ie not lottery within bands), you'd get a smaller and smaller catchment area just like Graveney and only the wealthy would then ever stand a chance. They are trying to be fair by using a lottery, it just makes it difficult to predict and plan for us parents.

No Sincitylover, you are wrong (gingeroots is right!), all of Southwark's schools operate their own admissions policies. It's only when Southwark children don't get a place at one of their six choices, that Southwark offers them a place at a Southwark School where places remain.
The new Harris Boys School in East Dulwich is now oversubscribed and the Harris Girl's school has much improved result(over 60% of the current year 11s passed their English and Maths last year, ie early!). I think the sixth form will be mixed between the schools and there is talk of a joint admissions policy. They both operate on distance as does Charter and Haberdasher's Aske. Quite a few children from Nunhead (ie Southwark)get into Aske's on distance, as Pepys Rd is very close to the Lewisham/Southwark boundary.

ok I stand corrected.

But it makes things worse then with ad-hoc admissions policies for each school.

Yes, sincity, having schools set their own policies, does make it worst, which is why there are lots of people complaining about Free Schools, and Academies, and so on... all of which make it worst. What is needed is a coordinated admissions policy for all schools in an area.

Call in the Local Authorities! And say no to the Coalition Free Schools policy ...

It's so hard isn't it ,I sympathise .

But Kingsdale is in a very idosyncratic location ,and I think this contributed to its' struggles in the past .

Maybe a lottery with some geographical boundaries as someone else has suggested ,would be the way to go ?
For all the schools - tho this won't happen ,given the current situation where we've handed so many of our schools over to individual sponsors and the rest are Faith schools .

But I actually think that there is a shortage of places ( esp.for boys ) in good co ed state schools in the south of the borough .

Gingeroots I think there is a general shortgae of places in good coed schools (only Charter and Kingsdale in South Southwark and Aske's for the borderers) but there seems a particular shortage of places for boys anywhere. I've not made a careful study as only have DD but there seem to be more girls' than boys' schools.

Harris Boys may be oversubscribed but I find it disturbing that they seem to have a constant police (or PCSO) presence when they only have Y7 and 8 there, and St Thomas the Apostle is Catholic and I've no idea how good it is anyway.

The fact that a lot of the children in South Southwark are offered either Sydenham Girls' or Forest Hill Boys' suggests that either Lewisham are better at schools or that there is just as big a N/S divide in Lewisham - but my experience of South Lewisham is limited so I don't know.

Having an on-site PCSO is just good community practice, I think, not a reflection on the behaviour of the boys at the school.

There always used to be more girls' schools in Lambeth - which was why schools like Stockwell and Kingsdale which were supposedly mixed, ended up with 90% boys (this is going back 10 years or more, both schools have about 50/50 now).

It seems to have evened out now, with Evelyn Grace & Elm Green opening, and Norwood School becoming co-ed. But it took a good few years of parents demanding non-religious co-ed schools, for that to happen.

Last year 11 of the children from our primary school went to Kingdale and most seem very happy there. This year, we were one of a large group children who didn't receive an offer from any of the six schools on our list. Oddly enough, it was all the most able, top set boys who seem to be in this position. The only people I know who were offered places at Kingsdale were girls. On our visit to Harris Academy at Peckham where we were offered a place (declined) the head said that there was a real problem getting a good mix of girls & boys as there are a number of good girls schools in the area that take a lot of them. Has anyone else noticed this trend or is it just me? The mix at Peckham is between 60:40 and 70:30 boys:girls.

Another person here who agrees re shortage of places for boys in SE london.
Where is your DC going to go ?

At this point in time, nowhere. We are having to play the waiting game & go down the appeals route although our grounds for appeal - that we have a sociable, funny, enthusiastic, reasonably bright boy, who needs a place to go to school - is unlikely to cut the mustard compared with the myriads of people appealing on the grounds of lost applications and failures to adhere to due process. I guess the worst case scenario is that we find somewhere - anywhere - reasonable & safe and then move him asap but I'd prefer not to. Children should be looking forward to this change with excitement & anticipation & although we are shielding & reassuring as best we can, my son feels rejected & despondent.

I think Kingsdale uses the Southwark banding system. If they had more applicants applying from the top band, it would reduce the probability of a child getting a place, some schools also split places between girls and boys. This would explain why top set children didn't get in fedupdomesticgoddess. Parents had wanted a mixed school rather that separate boys and girls schools in East Dulwich, but there was change in council leadership 9 years ago and with it the school plans changed and we ended up with Harris boys and girls schools. I've got friends with sons in Harris boys and in St Thomas the Apostle (Catholic but takes non-Catholics), they seem happy with both of these schools. A couple of people this year who didn't get Aske's/Kingsdale/Charter have got Deptford Green. This is a Lewisham School, not far from Aske's that seems to be up and coming.

I saw on the East Dulwich (eastdulwichforum.co.uk) and Nunhead (Nunheadforum.co.uk)Forums that there is a local councillor helping people with problems with their secondary school places, it might be worth contacting her or one of your other local councillors.