Kingsdale v's Dunraven

[Iamaworrywart]

Hi All,

If you had to choose between Kingsdale and Dunraven as a secondary school for your child which would you choose? They are my first and second choice state school preferences, but now I'm not sure which one I'm really hoping to get .

Looking forward to applying for these schools next year.

I prefer Graveney over Kingsdale, but there is uncertainty as to whether DC will pass the test high enough and uncertainty over the Kingsdale lottery. So does it matter which way round I put them in the form?
Sorry if this is a stupid question - but I find it all so confusing!

If I put Graveney first but then the test score doesn't get to the 98% needed, do we then damage a chance of getting one of the lottery places at Kingsdale, or doesn't it matter?

WorryWart I don't really know as DD did it! But I think they did some sort of maths and a reading comprehension???? It was only about half an hour - hour, it was on their induction day and I really don't know much about it at all!

drosophila - my understanding is you can contact all the schools you put down on your CAF and ask to be put on their waiting list even if you been offered a place you ranked higher.

TWOTB - It doesn't matter. The important thing is to list your school preferences in your true order as the school's don't know where you've ranked them. If you put Graveney first and DC doesn't score 98% or more and you don't live within 0.4 miles of the school which I think is as far as they go on distance offers you won't be offered a place. If you put Kingsdale second and DCs name comes out in the lottery you will be offered a place.

Woman on the bus, yes, it matters enormously what order you put the schools in. You only get one offer (or none). All the school admission authorities rank the applications they receive using the oversubscription criteria for that school. Then they send their lists to the LEA/Pan-London system, which checks to see who would get an offer. If at that stage any applicant would be in line to get more than one offer, the system automatically 'accepts' the offer from the school you ranked highest, and turns all the others down so that the places can be re-allocated to other children. They keep going round and round re-allocating and re-allocating until every child who can be made an offer has an offer from the highest possible school on their list.

If you prefer Graveney, you need to put it higher on the list than Kingsdale. Otherwise, if both schools could offer you a place, you would only get the Kingsdale offer.

You won't damage your chances at Kingsdale as schools are currently not allowed to ask what ranking you gave them and certainly can't take that into account in allocating places.

Helsey, thanks for the explanation. So your position is that you preferred Graveney and might get in from the waiting list. Good luck!

Londonmother - Is Iamaworrywart right, Is it possible to put yourself on the waiting list for each school on your list?

I don't know for sure, drosophila. I think so because you can appeal if you don't get into your higher ranked schools, so that would suggest you can ask to go on the waiting list. But we need an expert here, really.

I find it hard to understand. I thought the point of the Pan system was to avoid people having 2 or more schools which clogged up the system in the past. How can a child have 2 schools when there are others I know who have not been offered any of their preferences. I could understand being on a waiting list if you were way down at the bottom.

Helsey - i would be interested to know who told you to prepare for an offer. Was it the school or the LEA?

I'm far from an expert, quite the contrary! I did call up Wandsworth though just to find out DS' scores and it was them that suggested he go onto the waiting list.

Apparently Graveney has 2 lists, one selective and one catchment. I gather the catchment one has little movement but the selective one does. I think you can even ask to go on a waiting list for a school you didn't include in your original list.

TWOTB & drosophila, now we've been through this I would definitely put G first if you prefer it. Kingsdale told us (misleadingly) that we had a better chance if we put it first, hence my misguided blooper!

Yes I remember him saying that at the open day. It was someone on MN that convinced me to ignore him. I think someone said that Heads did not always know how the admissions system worked.

IKWYM drosophila with regards to quirky academic which is why I'm still uncertain about Kingsdale or Graveney. DS did the language test at Chestnut too.

It was Wandsworth council admissions team that told me to prepare for an offer. I would imagine this situation is a rarity as most people don't have a wobble about the order they put their choices after offer day!

I think the only reason they told me to prepare to make a choice was because DS scored high so would be near the top of the selective list and due to movement a place is likely to become available. He doesn't have two offers and I imagine if the G place does come up we'll have to say yes or no straight away so that he is not sitting on two places which is why the heads up about being prepared. Please know it is not definite, just likely.

Since Graveney has such an intense academic selection process, I would choose that one if my child was one of the top scorers.

Iamaworrywart and London Mother, many thanks. That is all clear. Naughty Kingsdale for telling porkies. Lets hope they didn't do it on purpose to encourage the right type of people to put them first over Graveney

At the Open Day I went to last year, Kingsdale's Head did explain clearly that the absolute most important thing applicants should do was rank the their choices in order of their preference, outlining the process that Iamaworrywart & LondonMother described.

i.e. that the only reason to put Kingsdale first was if it was your genuine first preference, & the school would not know where you had ranked it.

Not sure how that's a porky...

And of course you are more likely to be offered a place at your 1st choice school - for the simple fact that the places at your lower ranked schools are automatically rejected if you get your 1st place offer.

But you aren't more likely than other people who have applied for the same school to get a place at your 1st choice, just because you've put it first.

Or as the Head said (paraphrased) "Yes, its a bit complex but the one really important thing you must do is put the schools in the order you most want"

They had so many open days it is possible he was a bit misleading initially and then amended his speech for following dates.

I hate to think it was done on purpose.

Hmmm... we did go to one of the later days, and I got the impression he was clarifying since people were concerned - so you may be right there.

Perhaps they wanted to avoid parents thinking that if their child had a scholarship they would automatically get a place even if they didn't put Kingsdale 1st - that has caused confusion in the past.

Ok I'm still confused ! I had assumed that the Kingsdale lottery would have been among those who put it as their first choice, since there wd have been more applicants than places who had put it as first choice. I assumed u wouldn't even get a look in if u ranked it any lower. But r u suggesting that the lottery was between everyone who put it on their list at all? I wd be sickened if I found out someone was offered a place when it was not their first choice when we didn't get a place and it was our first choice ...

No, schools aren't allowed to know how you ranked them, they can only allocate based on their published admission policy. And yes the lottery is between everyone who put it on their list.

So in the first round you get a place at every school on your list that you are eligible for, and are automatically offered the highest one on your list and the others are rejected.

(And before March 1st this process is repeated until the schools fill up & the final 1st round offers go out)

So there could be people who been offered Kingsdale when it was their 2nd or even later choice, if their 1st choices were ones they didn't get because they live too far away or aren't Catholic enough or whatever.

The good news for you is that if they do get offered a place at their preferred school, then you will move up the waiting list. And people do get places off the waiting list, so it's worth hanging in there.

When I heard him speak he was implying that if you didn't have it first choice you would not be getting a place. It was his tone and his emphasis. I started a thread here along the lines of - do heads know how you ranked them - I was persuaded that they didn't but the cynic in me thought they did.

Drosophila I don't remember him saying that but he went on for so long I may have nodded off. Actually, I remember now, I did have to leave before the end.

Other heads at oversubscribed schools stressed the importance of being realistic and using all your options, not just the great schools that you might be unlikely to get into.

We had Kingsdale as #3 or 4, I can't remember now. DD is at a Southwark primary even though we now live outside the borough and her school has a tradition of sending lots to Kingsdale (even in the days when it was a school you wouldn't send your dog to if you could help it) so we thought if we didn't get our first two (nearer to us now but both very popular) then at least if she went to Kingsdale she would know people there.

This year only about 3 people from DD's school have got in to Kingsdale.

I have to say I'm a bit amazed (though geographically ignorant) to see Wandsworth parents on this thread. Where is the nearest bit of Wandsworth to Kingsdale? (I know Southwark is very thin at the south end.) Does the lottery happen within a geographical radius or can you apply from anywhere in London?

I think some parents at DD's school will be feeling a bit miffed that they have supported this previously catastrophically awful school on its path to improvement and are now being passed over.

We were lucky enough to get into our local school (we're only about 600m away but nothing is guaranteed) but I do feel for the Southwark parents who were hoping there would be a co-ed school in the south of the borough for them.

LadyWellian, indeed, it makes no difference in which borough you live. That is a consequence of the lottery system the school has adopted, and - designed - as it happens to prevent admissions through house prices and contracting catchment areas.

We live in Clapham, and have to cross Southwark to get there, but we will likely try. Kingsdale seems better than the local alternative. Parents living next to Kingsdale are of course also free to apply to Graveney (selection), Chesnut Grove (aptitude for arts or music) and even Lambeth Academy (although the latter is only on distance so likely no chance).

I've been a bit surprised to see Wandsworth parents on here too.

But Burntwood (girls only) in Wandsworth also has aptitude places and pupils travel across on a bus that starts at West Norwood (quite close to Kingsdale)and goes via Tulse Hill, Brixton & Clapham. So there's a tradition of making that long journey in the opposite direction.

Personally, Kingsdale wouldn't be first on my list if I lived close to Graveney, Chestnut Grove or Burntwood with a reasonable chance of getting in, purely because of the journey.

But then I wouldn't put Graveney etc first if I lived next to Kingsdale, either, and perhaps some would - or it would be the right choice for a specific child.

Well I live in Wandsworth and their is a bus direct to Dulwich and then a walk to Kingsdale. Not ideal and I figured about an hour journey. The lottery appealed as school admissions in Wandsworth can be very tough. My primary school did not know about the lottery system in Kingsdale but will probably tell parents next year.

We were lucky this year and got first choice as did quite a few parents so perhaps this year in Wandsworth is a better one than the past.

I am all for local schools for local kids and I do agree that it seems so unfait the local kids that live close to Kingsdale are not getting in now that it has improved.

There is alot of upset amongst local families who have not been offered their first choice place at Kingsdale this year - I feel we were really lucky to get in last year as obviously alot of the places are not going to local kids