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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

angered by tuition for grammar school 11+

264 replies

kelway · 21/12/2010 22:31

i was curious but does anyone else here feel the same in being frustrated with overly pushy parents who get their offspring heavily tutored (ie 3/4 nights a week after school for at least 2 years before taking the 11+). I constantly hear of girls getting into our local grammar school who were not as clever as other girls in the same class at school but who were overly pushed by their parents. Subsequently it feels like the local grammar school has been almost 'hijacked' by such people who can afford extra tuition. I always understood that grammar schools were for the more gifted student that perhaps had parents that could not afford to send them to a private school. Our local grammar school has become very elitest. i get the impression that the way i feel is pretty standard of most mothers of girls where i live (if your child isn't tutored however bright they are they stand no chance of getting into the local grammar school).

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 06/10/2011 08:59

Halloween, and about time for the Zombie march from Kingston station.

It could become something for locals to go and observe. When we did it I had felt that it was the perfect scene for anyone making a documentary about education. One scene which would sum up any number of Mumsnet threads.

Cretaceous · 06/10/2011 09:23

Old thread, but HuntyCat, I think you are totally wrong about being at a disadvantage.

I have a huge library of books, many gleaned from jumble sales. Books just aren't valued at all. Go along to a jumble sale at the end, and for £1 you can fill your sack with the leftovers - always huge numbers of lovely books. Your children's school will have heaps of books you can borrow. Organise an after-school second-hand book sale.

Re tutoring, we DIYed due to cost, and my DS got into a superselective, ahead of many prep school children and those who had been tutored from Y3. (We even picked up practice books from the jumble sale!) In fact, I think that those who DIY often do a better job than tutors. Go to the eleven plus forum, and get tips and advice. You don't need many resources at all, and there are lots of free ones on the internet.

My DS is in Y8 now, and loving it. He has lots of friends, because he is no longer one of the "nerdy ones" - he's just average, and fits in really well, which is great.

gramercy · 06/10/2011 09:29

I don't see why the parents complaining about tutoring can't buy a few past papers. I'm sure I wouldn't have the money nor inclination to have the dcs tutored twice a week for two years, but surely anybody's hand can steer the mouse towards Amazon and buy a set of Bond papers. Is £20 too much for some people to invest in their kids?

We are not in a grammar school area but I bought some papers for ds to try. Once he was familiar with the format he scored highly.

Tutoring can teach speed and technique, but I think only wide reading will enable a pupil to score well on the verbal reasoning.

And it's not all Persephones and Hugos being tutored, either. Many immigrant families are passionate about education and spend vast amounts of money on tutoring in order to advantage their children - who on MN would say they shouldn't do this?

slavetofilofax · 06/10/2011 10:01

Just because people are immigrants they don't have more right to tutor their kids than anyone else! Confused I would say they shouldn't do it in the same way I don't think anyone else should do it.

But I can easily understand why people do use tutoring. Who wouldn't when they feel a particular school is right for their child and the competition for places is so high?

I agree with Cretaceous tutoring can be done at home, but there is no way an unqualified parent is going to teach techniques to the same standard as a tutor who has coached lots of children through the 11+.

Cretaceous · 06/10/2011 10:56

"there is no way an unqualified parent is going to teach techniques to the same standard as a tutor who has coached lots of children through the 11+"

I thought that before I did it, but now I realise it's just not true. I bought an 11plus guide to maths, English and VR and we went through it together. And thanks to the internet, you can find out about particular exams and the techniques yourself.

If you have any problems, just ask on the 11plus forum, and you get loads of helpful replies. I don't think that tutors have a magic formula at all. It's all pretty standard stuff. Also, I've since discovered there are plenty of tutors who don't have a clue themselves, or who just give their children old papers to go through.

HuntyCat, don't be put off. If that's what you want to do, go for it.

SkiLift · 06/10/2011 14:52

Those children who have needed 2 plus years of tuition just to get through to the grammar school are not going to find it easy. The parents of those children need to think long and hard on whether they want their dc to suffer the pressure for the next 7 years doing something at a pace they cannot cope with.

In many cases it is a recipe for disaster. The psychiatric problems which can manifest themselves onto those 'eager to please the parents' 'it is expected of me' 'they will be so disasppointed if I do not get all A stars' is terrible.

On the other side are children who would have naturally won their own place without the tutoring but had to give it up for those who have been tutored to death for a higher mark.

Rant over.

Bonsoir · 06/10/2011 14:56

There is a huge difference between hothousing a child for the 11+ (unlikely to be a good long term plan) and tutoring a child in order to make up for the shortcomings of the education he/she has received at primary.

CustardCake · 06/10/2011 15:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yellowstone · 07/10/2011 09:43

CustardCake those numbers don't apply to all super-selectives. The numbers you cite are at the very top end of the scale and depend on demographics more than anything else; they aren't a measure of the success of the school.

Strongly agree with Bonsoir, especially that 'hothousing' is mad.

CustardCake · 07/10/2011 11:35

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotMostPeople · 07/10/2011 11:50

I posted on this thread last year, dd1 is in an excellent grammar school and we didn't have a tutor, just a few weeks of looking at past papers at home. I felt very strongly that this was the best approach.

However now that dd2 is in year 5 and the exams are just a year away I have to admit to panicking and packing her off to a tutor. If anything g dd2 is brighter than dd1, but now I've seen how much dd1 has flourished at the grammar I want it even more for dd2.

CustardCake · 07/10/2011 11:51

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yellowstone · 07/10/2011 15:01

I'm sure that's correct for London Custard but our nearest super-selective (50 mile radius) has less than 400 applicants applying for 120 places yet is still up towards/ at the top of the league and the leavers' destinations are also always towards the top.

Hence my comments about demographics and strength of school.

CustardCake · 07/10/2011 15:23

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

racingheart · 07/10/2011 16:07

Custard that's a really good distinction. It's just massively oversubscribed because there's no catchment. Puts it in perspective a bit.

I don't quite understand why the OP is so furious about tutoring. No is prevented from helping their children stand a better chance. No need for outsic=de tutors. there's loads you can do at home, pick up second hand etc. Why be angry that others are working hard to help their children? just do it too, if it bothers you. I truly don't get why people are so hysterical about the unfairness of tutoring. It's not unfair. I don't screech that my son's best friend has unfairly won himself a place in the swimming gala by going every morning at 6am for an hour when we go once a month. You get out what you put in. I think if anything, the kids who have worked really hard deserve the places far more than the 'naturally bright' whatever that means.

mrsrat · 07/10/2011 19:06

My DD1 taking 11+ tomorrow. We have only been "revising" for last 3 months when had to take her out of school for financial reasons. I feel sick reading how many children are tutored for sometimes years. I have been using the Bonds and GL books and an on line site but I think she is woefully unprepared having read these posts. She did really well in the school on line tests but 90% not the 98 % another poster suggested was the pass mark.

exoticfruits · 07/10/2011 19:25

Welcome to the real world! One of the reasons I hate the system. The parent who has 'bought' the place then has the hypocrisy to say 'what a wonderful system to give the DC from a deprived background a way up and out'!!

racingheart · 07/10/2011 23:20

Good luck Mrs Rat's DD.

mrsrat · 08/10/2011 09:19

Thank you racingheart. She is in there now.

CustardCake · 08/10/2011 09:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gazzalw · 08/10/2011 17:26

Can just report that we are one of those families that so didn't believe in tutors, thinking that we should be able to do it ourselves. For a start couldn't afford £40 an hour for a year or so....But, and this is true so there is hope for those of us who can't just throw money at our children's education, with a combination of gritted teeth Shock, Bond Online and Bond books (with others thrown in for good measure), we have done about 1/2 hour max a day for about the last nine months (and I certainly don't think we were over-rigourous!) and today it proved that it can be done as DS passed for one of the super-selectives. We were totally not sure that he would pass because we just felt that the opposition would far exceed what children can do from the state sector - but this proves it is do-able for everyone.
I do think that there is a big posse of upper middle class helicopter parents who use financial clout to muscle in and take over everything that should be open to all. The problem is that then we all think that it is not achievable without that financial clout and va-va-voom but it is.

mrsrat · 08/10/2011 17:44

gazzalw did DS take the test today or did you hear today. My DD did the test this morning and she knows that she just ran out of time so guessed 6 questions which is the difference between pass and fail at the school she wanted to get into ?

gazzalw · 08/10/2011 17:53

Hi, Mrsrat, DS got result today. He and his friends all had some issues with completing the 80 VR questions but DS said he finished even though he guessed a few of the last ones whereas some of his friends only got to Q55-60!
But for that particular 11+ the VR only accounted for 20% of marks so if the boys were very strong in the other subjects it might not have made that much difference...

mrsrat · 08/10/2011 18:11

Thanks for the reply. We only have to wait until next week for a ranking although thats obviously not a guaranteed place. At least its all over. I cant ever remember being this stressed when I did my own exams. I fear I may be morphing into a "helicopter mum" I keep hearing about

gazzalw · 09/10/2011 07:40

I think that is the most difficult bit - we were cock-a-hoop yesterday about DS's 11+ pass, but then the dawning realisation that it still didn't necessarily guarantee him a place kicked in and felt it was a hollow victory/celebration (not for DS) for we adults....
On a positive note all DCs from DS's school who passed last year got their places too!