angered by tuition for grammar school 11+

[kelway]

i was curious but does anyone else here feel the same in being frustrated with overly pushy parents who get their offspring heavily tutored (ie 3/4 nights a week after school for at least 2 years before taking the 11+). I constantly hear of girls getting into our local grammar school who were not as clever as other girls in the same class at school but who were overly pushed by their parents. Subsequently it feels like the local grammar school has been almost 'hijacked' by such people who can afford extra tuition. I always understood that grammar schools were for the more gifted student that perhaps had parents that could not afford to send them to a private school. Our local grammar school has become very elitest. i get the impression that the way i feel is pretty standard of most mothers of girls where i live (if your child isn't tutored however bright they are they stand no chance of getting into the local grammar school).

[sue52]

Maybe to even the balance there should be different offers to kids from schools who don't traditionally send great numbers of their pupils to grammar schools. Say an offer of 360 (out of 420 marks) instead of 400 or whatever it is in any year.

[kelway]

mrsguyofchristmas - no sour grapes, my dd is only 7 so she has not taken an 11+. my post is purely based on frustration on what i have heard from both mothers and a few teachers i have spoken to/teaching assistants. i have three times now over the last few years been told of instances when a child in the class who was middle in the class got in to a grammar school having been heavily tutored and yet a child in the same class who was not or barely tutored did not. you make alot of sense in your statement about why should a child not naturally clever has as much right to go to a grammar school as a naturally born clever child, good point, i agree with you. what i find frustrating is how some people who seem to live and breathe their childs education have made it virtually impossible for anyone to stand a chance of getting in unless we follow their strict after school activities of tuition. i know of many people who have a daughter my daughters age who send her straight off for further tuition after school. these children spend hours studying that i think instead should be spent relaxing and just being a child, playing. i know a fair few of these children (my daughter does, you tend to have surface chats with their mothers in the playground, rarely through choice as i prefer to keep myself to myself but they let slip some comments about what their child does after school). my take on it is that some of them see (although would doubtlessly not admit it) their childs success in life as an extension of themselves or even possibly a meal ticket down the line so their pushing and investing money can eventually indirectly be to their own benefit. I want my child to have a wonderful childhood as indeed i did, i want her to be able to play after school, and not spend hours in the library or with a tutor. It is for THIS reason alone that I feel annoyed. My dd is bright, she is in the top groups of her class although to be honest, we can afford if we chose to, to send her privately later on although i have no problem with state schools so if she ends up there fine, i am still annoyed as the way some people have taken over the grammar schools and i can see from the majority of responses others feel the same. Good luck to the children who get in who are not as clever but have worked harder but i bet they are not having much of a childhood with spare time to play and just 'be'.

[CaptainNancy]

Cat64- we are same authority, and it is actually over 20 sitting per GS place! The schools take top 5% of those sitting (rather than 20 or 30%), and are usually amongst the top oerforming schools in the country.
The no catchment area thing means many children from outside the authority apply too, and even children within the authority can travel 15 miles each way (may not sound much to rural mners, but urban authority- can take me 1hr 10 minutes to do the 3.5 miles to school )

It is now impossible to get in without any form of preparation, meaning the original intention of grammars has been abandoned as mentioned above, something I feel does need addressing, as I believe academic children should be offered academic oppportu nities regardless of their parents' situation.

[AlpinePony]

seeker - I don't wish to be seen as "having a go" or the like - but what exactly in the realm of education, is "wrong" with being bookish? Surely that's the point? A child who's read hundreds of books will have their imagination fired. Although I have heard a ghastly anecdote of a Literature grad boasting of owning "more than 20 books"!

I went to a grammar in bexley and nobody, but nobody I knew was tutored back then. I can think of two girls who were driven up from Sevenoaks every day - but they'd moved as families out of the area - and a handful of people from Thamesmead/Charlton - but most were just normal children from Bexley/Welling/Sidcup/Bexleyheath. :(

How depressing.

[Butterbur]

Hi, Alpine. Another Bexley girl here. I passed the 11+ and got a free place at a Direct Grant school.

[reallytired]

Working class children lose out whether it is selection by postcode or selection by 11 plus.

I think the pupil premimum is a good step forward for improving equality in education. However a bigger and braver step would be to make the intake of comprehensives in large towns truely comprehensive.

Where I live there are four secondary schools within two miles of my house. They could easily have ablity banding without having to put on extra buses. If the schools in the posh areas had their fair share of thick kids and the schools in the rough areas had their fair share of bright chidren then it would be guarenteed that each school had enough children to offer seperate sciences to the bright and more vocational courses to the less academic.

The evil with grammar schools is that mistakes cannot be corrected. Unlike a comprehensive the over coached child cannot be moved to a lower set when they cannot cope. There are less opportunities for bright children in secondary modens as there are not enough children to run a gifted and taleneted maths class.

Social mobility is at an all time low. It is bad for the UK.

[LadyLapsang]

I don't feel frustrated about parents trying to do the best for their children and for thinking intelligently about how to achieve the goal of a good education. I am quite happy for children who have been educated in the independent sector to compete for GS places; many of those children will only be in the independent schools in the first place because their local primary is not of a good standard.

My gripes are:

Allowing people who live / work abroad (apart from forces personnel) to compete for state boarding places (including GSs) when they do not work and pay tax in the UK - this depletes the number of good school places for those that contribute to our society;

LEAs / GSs skewing the exams towards their own pupils e.g. by allowing children at primaries within the LEA to sit the exam in the morning in their usual classroom setting and then making independent / out of borough school pupils sit them in the afternoon in an unfamiliar setting after a full morning at school (& normal prep in the evening) for 4 days running (Bexley council used to do this, don't know if they still do).

Maybe we should be more flexible regarding movement between GSs and other schools in the first few years of secondary to allow for children's different development.

[Quattrocento]

I dunno, from past experience of these threads, it sounds as though there are two sorts of grammar school entrance exams:

1. Where they test knowledge - which does have to be tutored for as the children at state schools simply won't have covered the ground
   

1. Where they test ability via verbal and non-verbal reasoning. YOU DO NOT NEED TO TUTOR FOE THIS TYPE OF ENTRANCE EXAM. DD passed very high up the list (similar 10:1 ratio) after doing four practice papers. She is bright but not a real brainbox
   

Reading the school's automated response to you, it sounds as though they are doing the second type of exam. In which case, there really is no need to tutor. None. It's just parental paranoia. Trust me.

[reallytired]

"I am quite happy for children who have been educated in the independent sector to compete for GS places; many of those children will only be in the independent schools in the first place because their local primary is not of a good standard."

So what is a good standard. My son has friend at an independent and he is in a class of 8 with a teacher and a TA. My poor son is in a state primary with 30 kids and no TA. Where is the fairness in that.

"LEAs / GSs skewing the exams towards their own pupils e.g. by allowing children at primaries within the LEA to sit the exam in the morning in their usual classroom setting and then making independent / out of borough school pupils sit them in the afternoon in an unfamiliar setting after a full morning at school (& normal prep in the evening) for 4 days running (Bexley council used to do this, don't know if they still do)."

ha! ha! poor little diddledums. I am sure that the private school can let the children off homework and even school if this is a problem. Any way it doesn't stop the private school kids bagging many of the grammar places.

"Maybe we should be more flexible regarding movement between GSs and other schools in the first few years of secondary to allow for children's different development."

Children make friends and might not want to change school. Can you imagine how a child would feel to be kicked out the grammar for being thick. It would knock their confidence to pieces.

Why not have a good comprehensive with setting. Changing set at a comprehensive easier than changing school.

[drosophila]

VR test disadvantage those whose English is not their first languag. My DS's friend who is very bright and speaks four languages will be at a disadvantage in VR tests. He won't know what 'wan'means even though he has only been speaking english for 4 years and puts most of his peers to shame.

[seeker]

"seeker - I don't wish to be seen as "having a go" or the like - but what exactly in the realm of education, is "wrong" with being bookish?"

Absolutely nothing. But if grammar schools are intended to provide an education for innately bright children regardless of background, and to give clever children from disadvantaged backgrounds a step out of disadvantage, creating an entrance test that favours middle class children from bookish homes is patently unfair.

[AlpinePony]

I don't think books are found only in homes. I'm guessing they have access to libraries. Curious children by their very nature will seek out the library and other ways to gain knowledge. I don't believe it's about the middle classes, but I do believe there's a lot of bitterness about the issue.

Life isn't fair - and it's certainly not "fair" to drag down the classes of "brighter" students to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

[seeker]

My dd went to a very socially mixed primary school. Out of her year of 60, 30 took the 11÷, 13 passed it. All middle class children of professional, largely university educated parents.

Does that sound fair to you?

[AlpinePony]

Are you saying the results should be fiddled so that someone who doesn't perform as well be allowed through?

At my primary - from the 45 or so of us, 8 passed. Being from "Bexley" I suppose we were all "middle-class" - so why didn't the other 37 pass?

If the child cannot pass the test it can't pass. No point getting upset about it for the next x years.

I find myself in an interesting position now as a mother. I'm living in The Netherlands, here the children will be streamed and the "less academically able" will do plumbing/electrician/builders/hairdressing courses from age 14 rather than be forced through GCSEs/A-levels which they have no hope in passing. I love this idea - because if my son has no interest in academia this is wonderful - but I have a British friend who is so against this idea she's sending her daughter to an independent school to sit exams regardless of talent.

Not every child is a genius.

[seeker]

"Are you saying the results should be fiddled so that someone who doesn't perform as well be allowed through?'

where did I say that? I am saying that any test which is skewed in favour of the middle classes is inherently a bad test and should not be used to determine the future of 10 year old children.

The test starts off unfair, and the unfairness is then compounded because parents with the knowledge/interest/money can significantly increase their children's chance pf passing,

Middle class children are not cleverer than working class children. Why then do very few of the latter go to grammar schools?

[AlpinePony]

Probably because they live in a Labour voting area and successive Labour adminstrations have put pay to Grammar schools! As you were!

It does not favour the middle classes - that's like saying driving tests are skewed towards the middle classes as a child with more money is more likely to be able to afford a car!

[seeker]

With respect - as people alwsays say when they are going to say something a bit rude - I'm not sure that someone who does not live in a grammar school area even in a country which has grammar schools!) can make informed statements about the 11+!


If the test is not skewed in favour of the middle classes - either because the test itself is badly formulated or because those children who have access to additional coaching before - then why do a disproportionate number of middle class children pass it?

Or are you saying that middle class children are brighter than working class ones?

[Notevenamouse]

"I don't think books are found only in homes. I'm guessing they have access to libraries. Curious children by their very nature will seek out the library and other ways to gain knowledge. I don't believe it's about the middle classes, but I do believe there's a lot of bitterness about the issue." For a child under ten to get to the library from our village they would have to take two buses. That library will be closed shortly. How the hell are they supposed to seek the library out ?

[AlpinePony]

Maybe they could ask you for a lift? Or maybe they could read stuff online - I'm guessing you've got internet access.

Of course if you're looking for excuses you'll find them.

[Notevenamouse]

I have internet access but the kids on the estate mostly don't and they don't know me well so asking me for a lift (i don't drive anyway) would just be odd

[MollieO]

I have a 6 yr old who will most likely do the 11+. I'm surprised at the suggestion on this thread of getting practice books from 7. If a child needs so much tutoring to pass the exam what happens once they are at the school? Unless the tutoring continues they will be lurking down the bottom of the class. I can't see that being a recipe for happiness.

When i did it we took three practice papers in class and then did the exam. No tutoring at all.

It is also a mistake to think that dcs at prep school get prepared for the 11+. The preps in our area don't do any practice for 11+ or tutoring. Those that go up to 13 do CE prep but the ones that go up to 11 do nothing.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Agree that older children may seek out books, go to library on their own but not primary school age unless the parents support them and take them. Our local gs is in a very deprived town, not many midfle class residents. Exam has a pass mark and then places are given on distance. So the kids living in town have an advantage over the mc kids in the villages. We're ten miles away and its hit and miss every year whether kids from this village get ä place. We won't tutor dd, just get some practice papers.

[Notevenamouse]

"It is also a mistake to think that dcs at prep school get prepared for the 11+. The preps in our area don't do any practice for 11+ or tutoring. Those that go up to 13 do CE prep but the ones that go up to 11 do nothing."

Most of them do though, common entrance exams contain a verbal reasoning paper (usually) so they have to.

[grumpypants]

I'm so sick of reading that middle class children only get anywhere due to their pushy parents. I genuinely do not understand why children from poorer families underachieve compared to their peers because I can only imagine it is down to parental influence unless we are saying poorer children aren't as bright . Libraries are free, Sure Start exists etc. At some point, people have to accept that parents have a job to do, and maybe we should encourage parents to spend time chatting/ reading/ playing with their kids. After all, middle class families are constantly berated for basically trying to do their best for their kids, as if they are somehow stepping on other children in the process.
FWIW I am totally opposed to grammar schools, and am against tutoring which massively works against any family that cannot afford it.