angered by tuition for grammar school 11+

[kelway]

i was curious but does anyone else here feel the same in being frustrated with overly pushy parents who get their offspring heavily tutored (ie 3/4 nights a week after school for at least 2 years before taking the 11+). I constantly hear of girls getting into our local grammar school who were not as clever as other girls in the same class at school but who were overly pushed by their parents. Subsequently it feels like the local grammar school has been almost 'hijacked' by such people who can afford extra tuition. I always understood that grammar schools were for the more gifted student that perhaps had parents that could not afford to send them to a private school. Our local grammar school has become very elitest. i get the impression that the way i feel is pretty standard of most mothers of girls where i live (if your child isn't tutored however bright they are they stand no chance of getting into the local grammar school).

That's sad mouse

I was at school abroad where we had university fees. But courses for key workers such as doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers were subsidised on the condition that they worked in the state sector for a number of years.

I don't see why we can't introduce things like that here. I would be fully behind that (not that I was ever behind tuition fees in the first place!). We shouldn't be discouraging key workers at all.

We also had the big companies coming into school and identifying talent very early on (like the equivalent of yr8/9) and encouraging those children to go on to university and sponsoring those from poorer backgrounds.

That sounds like a brilliant idea. I just wish we had known earlier we would have started saving as soon as we had children, but thats another story !

It does seem like such a shame this country has such a tiered system.

I'm shocked that most schools now don't offer 3 separate sciences at GCSE.

Even at my fairly crappy ex Sec mod comp you could do 3 separate sciences at O level.

Is it most ? I'm not sure about that.

I understand that some schools only offer separate sciences to those in Set 1 for Science. Not great if you have a kid who is good at biology and crap at Physics. They can always go on to college and do a science with their A'Levels.

Actually was only basing my opinion that most don't on the fact that a lot of posters on MN say their DCs schools don't offer separate sciences. So I could well be wrong.

But actually it is wrong that ANY schools are not allowing DCs access to a full academic education if they want it. When I was at school none of the local schools would have even considered not offering 3 separate sciences. And my school was pretty small and rural with only 800 pupils in total.

I'm not happy with tutoring either but I suspect that the super selectives (like DD's school) are happy with the status quo. Parents who've spent £££ on tutors tend to be middle-class and also happy to contribute generously to school funds.

DD did not go to a tutor; we did exam practice together and this was really useful preparation and familiarisation. But I feel really strongly that the hype around tutoring is unhelpful. It encourages parents to believe that certain schools are simply unattainable unless they can also shell out for expensive specialist tutoring for several years. It puts children under excessive pressure, as they're certainly bright enough to realise that tutoring is a major investment of time, effort and money.

If you argue there should be no tutoring, I am sure a lot of grammar school places would be taken up by prep school chidlren where the schools focus on these tests. At least with tuition, we might give others the chance to have a more level playing field...no?

It's just such a tricky issue - I know parents of other girls in my daughter's school year who had a little tutoring for the 11+ exam just because it is essentially the first time some of these kids face that kind of written paper and they just went once a week to help feel prepared and in control by knowing what they would face. Though my daughter didn't have this at 11+ we did get hold of some past papers and go through them with her at home and I do see the value in this as it actually calms them down and makes the tests less of an 'unknown quantity'

But several times a week for 2 years? That sounds completely OTT and yes I should imagine absolutely does give some kids who, as you say, have parents who can afford it, an unfair advantage.

The trouble is, how can this be monitored or controlled - there is no way to prevent or control how much external help some parents give their children.

A couple of our local schools have now taken to quite random verbal reasoning and 'sentence based' english tests at 11+ because these are much harder to prepare for and show a clearer picture of the child's natural aptitude - the way forward perhaps, to beat the 'pushy parenting' culture?

I think many parents pay for their children to be tutored because they dont have faith in the school system.

Look at how many posts are on Mumsnet alone about private tutoring - for all ages - because their children are not progressing as expected at school.

Some schools do not teach children how to read test questions properly - this is a skill in itself.

Not all children are taught everything they need to know on the curriculum. They might have been off sick, they might have just not understood the subject at the time. They get taught something once a year and are expected to remember it. They dont.

So for a child to be tutored, they are revising their skills and knowledge, they are being taught strategies to remember, no matter what the subject is.

If tutoring is used to revise and consolidate then I think that's fine.

I dont however agree that a primary child should be studying for two hours a night in addition to their school day. Fifteen minutes a night is more than adequate.

I notice that some posters say they go through the exam papers themselves with their children.

This is great if your child is receptive and will work with you, but many children will not learn with their parents, hence the reason for paying for a tutor.

(Would like to add that I dont send my children to a tutor - I cant afford it), and they dont need to pass exams to get into the local high school anyway.

seems to me that there are obviously a large number of tutors who don't seem to have a problem taking money from parents for two, three or even four years... wonder what their day job is - just saying.

To show my hand, my dtr is at a selective independent school which she managed to get into WITHOUT tutoring. We didn't think she would get in because she hadn't had the advantages of a prep education or tutoring so let her sit the exam whilst cushioning her for the inevitable disappointment to come...

^^oh, and we might possibly be considered middle class but we certainly are not well off. Public sector workers and all that.

Was today - think I've now heard everything. Chatting to mum I met by chance who I knew years ago in NCT - she revealed that at her DC (expensive, non-selective) prep school, the children have tutors (ie out of school, paid by the parents worried about their DC getting into selective senior schools) to do the DC homework - apparently everyone lies about it but many parents are at it Seems ultra-crazy to pay a fortune in school fees and then pay extra, and sneak about under cover of darkness lest you be found out to pay a tutor extra on top to do the homework competitively.... Makes Amy Chan (sp?) look laid back, in comparison...

My dd goes to a Grammar school, I have a feeling that Seeker has said previously where she lives and if I'm correct we are in the same area. I've met quite a few of dd's friends and their families and wouldn't say they were all middle class by any means. Quite a few also come from homes where English isn't the first language, so I'm not sure I agree that either of those things are a factor.

I don't believe that you need a paid tutor, we certainly didn't and I do believe that a child with the right ability would be flagged up at primary school. At my dc's school they were tested for vr, nvr & maths with results put at the bottom of their end of year report with a key to tell you if they are on track to pass the 11+. At the parents evenings the teachers bring it up also, so not parent driven. Whilst there might be some parents who are not keen for their dc's to do the 11+ or who don't support their dc's I know our primary school would.

Mrs G, do you think that's where I'm going wrong with DS1's homework? I'm expecting him to do it himself!

My children are in a prep school where all the children are tutored 4 times a week at least. The parents show off how much private tuition they are giving their children. We live in a Grammar school magnet area as well, they are preparing for both Private and Grammar .

I have a 'very clever' dc. DS1 was IQ tested by his primary school when he was aged just 8yo in Y3, and came out with a result of a verbal IQ of 132. However - there is still quite a huge chance that he will not get into the only Grammar school in my town. Simply because it is a very well thought of Grammar school (CRGS), and EVERY child that gets a place has been heavily tutored since the start of Y3. I cannot afford a tutor.

I am a lone parent on benefits, and the GS is the best route out of the poverty cycle for my DS1. But because of the tutoring of people that apply to CRGS from all over Essex, I am seriously worried he won't get in. All the workbooks I do at home with him aren't the same as having tutoring - and I can't AFFORD half of the workbooks that are recommended either.

It really riles me that a child that is as clever as my DS1 may miss out simply because he has not been taught how to pass the 11+ exam - he is being taught how to pass the SATS exam with level 5's across the board (or he was until he HIT level 5, anyway...). In maths now, despite having been given the level 5 work in Y4, he is being made to do it again, as the (state primary) are struggling to effectively differentiate for him when he is working at a higher level of maths than any of their Y6's (apparently, according to Deputy HT).

He is now in Y5, and I am doing my best to help prepare him for the 11+, but it's hard when I can't afford many resources.

What's with the zombie threads? Is it a halloween thing?

And in our area - It's NOT VR and NVR tests - which would be a damn sight easier to pass without tutoring - my DS1 got 98% on his FIRST ever try at an NVR practice paper. It's the knowledge of various writing styles, each year different, varying from Othello one year, to A Christmas Carol the next year, to Captain Corelli's Mandolin this year.

And the library ISN'T free - not if you have to use public transport to travel the 4.5 miles to get there, with 4 dc in tow, 3 of which you have to pay for. In my town, you pay 2/3 of adult bus fare on the buses from the age of 5yo. So it costs me £9.95 to get to the nearest library and back. I just CAN'T afford it every week.

How the hell am I supposed to give him this sort of knowledge, when all the books he does own and read are what is available in the only shop on my estate - a Tesco superstore?!

They don't exactly teach things like this at state primary schools - in fact, my primary school no longer has a functioning school library as they needed the space as an extra classroom. (Took a bulge class four years ago). THAT'S why there aren't many dc on FSM attending Grammar schools.

Must be zombie threads, post.

I like this zombie thread! We were anxiously waiting for 11+ results when it was around and I remember reading it, and ds has now happily settled into his new school.

My DD sat her 11+. I was staggered that there were over 3000 girls applying for 90 places. People had come from all over the country! She had a bit of tuition, to cover exam technique and we got some verbal and non verbal exercise books from Smith's. She didn't get in, but is doing wonderfully well in the to set at the local comp.

A friend of hers did get in and her Mum says the transition from being top of the class at primary to bottom at secondary has been very hard for her.

And I missed the op date too!