state school child got into Eton

[kris123]

Dear Mums,

Our son was accepted into Eton, and we are indeed very happy, but as always there are now new concerns. He is currently attending a state school, and is due to finishing this year at year 6, whereas Eton only starts in year 9. This means that we have two years "inbetween".

Please note that the offer to Eton, as all of them, is conditional on passing the common entrance exam , which I hear is not difficult, but still requires some work (especially as there are specific subjects like history and geography and latin to cover).

Our choices are:

1. play it safe, send him to the local prep school waste 14k a year basically, and put him under totally not needed stress with kids fighting for 13+ intake. Most prep schools will take him as he will simply improve their statistics.

2. send him to the grammar school, which our son will most probably get into (he did pass the test, but decisions due in March). Issue there for me is that they will not know the Independent Common Entrance System, and will not prepare him for it, and furthermore will not even know that he is leaving them at age of 13 to go to Eton. To add to this they do not teach Latin, one subject that is needed on Common Entrance Tests i think.

3. send our child abroad for one year, to France or Germany to learn a new language, have some fun, ski, relax, and basically enjoy a year after the stress of last two months, learning to board etc. Then bring him back for year 8 to prep school and prepare him for the exam that is towards the end of the year.

Now, I am lost with this topic, but maybe someone can guide me, especially on feasibility of plan 2) and 3). You see we are very much pro state school system - grammar of course, and want our son to learn that there are grammar schools for smart kids and be proud of his years there.

Now my concerns are:

a) how difficult are these common entrance tests? can someone actually fail them if they are smart and do some work, or do you need a lot of work and prep for it like with the admissions process?

b) what is the level and type of work done at the grammar schools... is their program similar to prep schools so that this knowledge can be used for common entrance?

c) how risky would it be to take a child out of the UK education system for one year, and bring him back to the prep school and prepare for the common entrance tests in one year?

Thanks, happy but still concerned parent

I can't answer all your questions but your son has only passed the preliminary test to get into Eton. He will need to do more than pass his common entrance, most of the top public schools need about 70% in each subject even after preliminary test at 11.
Only prep schools prepare for this exam and there is course work involved in some subjects - definitely geography. if your school does not do RE or latin I think they will make exceptions.

If Eton is your first choice the safest option would be to send him to prep school for years 7 and 8. 6 years ago when my son did CE a very bright boy had left his prep school after year 6 and gone to a good RC comp. He then had a bit of tutoring and took CE in yr 8 for entrance into a top public school. He did not get in. This was due purely to lack of preparation.

BTW he has to do a french paper and oral exam whhich prep school boys have been learning for about 4 years and is not far off gcse level. Has he attended an interview yet, not sure whether this is in year 6 or 8. Passing the test at 11 does not imply he has been accepted.

The ISEB syllabuses are here.

My nephew did CE in June - they covered the syllabus in Y6 and Y7 and then Y8 was spent doing practice papers and prep for the oral exams and the geography fieldwork.

A lot of the stuff is similar to the NC and the language papers can be taken at different levels. However, Eton expect boys to take the higher level papers and (as lazymum says) expect 70% as a minimum in the exams.

His best chance will be at a prep school - if he doesn't get the right grades at CE he will not get into Eton.

Thanks for the views. Very interesting. Very sceary that you can "get into" a good school and then lose on the last straight due to lack of preparation.

Yes he passed his interviews and entrance exams, so its only the common entrance left. Also, apparently last year only 1 child (out of 250) failed the common entrance exam so I was told not to worry about it, but frankly - I am worried especially given the state/private school system divide. I definitely do not want to take any unreasonably high risks, but with all respect to your friend, comprehensive schools and grammar schools are of massive different in level (I am also hoping to go for St Olave's which is probably the best grammar in London).

You do not think that a grammar school will prepare him at the level equivalent to the common entrance ones?

You have no idea how much against i am of the idea of going to prep school. I was always so anti prep schools, a very concept of it, the name, the costs, the motive to differentiate between the good and bads kids at such an early stage (i think that things are bad at 11, but at 6? its insane).

Prep school would also, more importantly, hurt me financially. You see, Eton is 30k per year, but only five years of pain, vs for instance Westminster which is 20k per year but for seven years (day school).

What about if I send my child to a private school like Whitgift? They could offer us 50% scholarship, but this would not be a real prep school, but already for the 11- 18 years. Do you think that they would prepare my son for the Common Entrance even though they would not require it themselves?

Its amazing how different the state and private systems are. Its almost impossible to switch to really old schools (like eton, winchester, harrow) without going to prep school, what is not nice I think.

Thank you Caoimhe.

So nobody got into Eton, Winchester or Harrow directly from a state school. I am amazed to learn this, and frankly - not very happy with this.

I think that especially in the times of economic crisis, some of the smartest kids are at the grammar schools. Why Eton then.. whell to me education is more than just about IQ. Its about the experience, about the drama classes, music school, design center, boarding facilities, field trips, suspensions and hopefully not expulsions. Education to me is more than just A* grades at A-level - hence my choice of school, but I am not pleased that I might have to opt for the private sector already vs the grammar school (and lets face it... prep schools, even best ones, have plenty of idiots there too - probably as many as the good RC or CE primary school).

Strange world.

Would love to hear from someone who went to Eton, Winchester or Harrow directly from state school, and what measures - if any, you had to take.

THANK YOU!

There is also the point that if you send him to one of the grammer schools for 2 years you are efffectively taking a place from a child who needs it all the way to 18.

Prep schools do what it says on the package. They prepare kids for entry into public schools. Not all 'split the good from the bad' as you put it. My sons went to a non-selective prep which got the boys into the appropriate school for their ability/character. If you move him into a school which does not do CE you will have to pay for tutoring in order to cover the syllabus etc. This will be cheaper than prep fees though.

It's not that somewhere like St Olave's isn't academically pushy - the issue is that the syllabus is not exactly the same as that covered for CE. I'm sure some kids do get into Eton from state schools but it wouldn't be easy. In the past Eton used to do a 10+ exam for boys from state primaries but if they passed they had to go to a prep for 3 years (paid for by Eton - or at least partially paid depending on the scholarship offered).

I don't understand your calculations - how can Eton at £30k for 5 years (£150k) be better than Westminster at £20k for 7 years (£140k)?

Whitgift will categorically not prepare your child for CE. No doubt it is possible to use a tutor instead of sending him to prep school but just imagine your ds having to do extra work on top of his normal school homework! Somewhere like St Olave's will give him plenty of work so you could find him suffering two years of stress.

Why not just keep him at St Olave's for 7 years?

Aren't Eton advising you? They fund very bright boys from state schools who pass the prelim for 2 years at prep from 11+ to get them ready for CE. These are boys from poorer backgrounds whose parents couldn't afford the fees (so unlike you in that respect) but if you explained your situation to them I'm sure they'd advise you. Y7 and Y8 in a state grammar (or even a private 11-18) are nothing like years 7 and 8 in a prep school.

BTW Westminster still works out cheaper than Eton and the extras are all there (unless you're dead set on boarding).

agree with maria - speak to Eton and see what they suggest.
THey are required to assist to maintain the tax breaks of charity status...

Either Prep School, then Eton OR a different school from 11 and stay there.

I think you should find out more about Prep schools as your prejudice and misinformation can only be based on lack of information, surely? (The name 'Prep' is only because they 'prep'are pupils to enter senior schools - what's wrong with that?)

Most are non-selective and aim to give the broadest, best education possible with huge opportunities for personal development, music, sport and drama in addition to following the Common Entrance/Scholarship syllabus. I wish every child could have such opportunities!

Why plan to send your son to Eton, which costs three times more than an independent day school (where I live Midlands) and then start him off there at a disadvantage? If your son does not follow the Common Entrance, or Common Academic Scholarship syllabus, he will not have studied to such a high level, especially in subjects like French and Latin, even at a school like St Olave's. This will affect him when he begins at the school, not just in passing the entrance test.

I also agree with the poster who said it would be awful to deliberately take a place at St Olave's away from another child who would have stayed until they were 18 and whose parents may not have the finances to make other choices. You will have altered the course of their life!

As I said at the beginning, either Prep School, then Eton OR a different school from 11 and stay there.

My son did Common Entrance having passed the pre-test for his highly academic private school.

common entrance is quite hard--for good schools the pass rate is high. At French they are working almost at GcSE level. The difference between the Latin at this stage and GcSE is not huge, either.

I would send him to a prep school. You want him up and running when he gets to Eton, not in the low sets because he hasn't covered the same syllabus as the other boys in years seven and eight.

Sorry, that should read the pass MARK is high. That is, the average you have to reach across all the papers.

There is a separate scholarship for state school boys which afaik is not means tested and which does fund prep for the two years between leaving primary and starting at Eton. Local feeder is St George's which does prep for CE and has a very good record. Is also optional boarding.

also what makes you think that somewhere like Whitgift would offer your son a 50% scholarship?? yes, they do offer 50% scholarships to a few boys (but it's usually more like 10% to a lot of boys), but the boys who get 50% are academically outstanding, usually have another talent (sport, music etc) and their families are committed to the school - or would you be planning to lie during the interview?

And no 11-18 school would prepare your son for CE - why on earth would they?

I know of a boy who got into Eton on a full scholarship in Y6. This also entitled him to prep school from Y7 till he started boarding at Eton. He went to Westminster, I think and is doing extremely well at Eton now.

His brother who is also extremely bright is at a state comprehensive. It will be interesting how the outcomes differ.

I don't really understand your hostility to prep schools, given that you're happy with the idea of a private secondary.
My brothers went to a lovely prep school and whilst there was setting from a very early age it was very fluid - eg my younger brother went from bottom to top set in a year.

"You see we are very much pro state school system - grammar of course, and want our son to learn that there are grammar schools for smart kids and be proud of his years there"

Not sure why you tried him for Eton really. Don't fall into the trap of just wanting to tell people he could have gone to Eton if we'd wanted.

Your son is obviously very bright, but I think you are a bit confused about which system you want him in. Once you make a firm decision about whether its to be public boarding or state grammar then the route follows from there.

Prep then Eton or state grammar years 7-13

I dont understand, Westminster also starts at 13 and entry is via CE. It is the cheaper option,, though more expensive than the other London day schools.

The trouble about 13+ entry is that you have about a term off and then it is GCSE preparation. These schools get their great grades because half the work has already been done at CE.

Kids do a lot of French, Latin, Maths etc at CE. Worth having a skim through the Galore Park books that cover the sylabus.

If you want your child prepared then it is probably the Prep School.

Needmoresleep - Westminster take some state school boys into their prep school at year 7. Once they take them at this stage I think progression to the senior school is a formality.

Westminster Under School takes boys in at 11. But this is a prep school like any other. You still need to pass CE. Plenty of Under School boys end up going elsewhere, and the majority intake at 13 is not from the Under school.

The cost comparison is between Eton at 13 and Westminster Under/Westminster at 11. This is not a valid comparison, given both schools actually start at 13, and both probably mean moving to the private sector at 11.

(The exceptional boy can make the leap at 13. But they are rare and need to be absolutely exceptional. The sort of boy who is happy studying Latin etc on their own.)

Thank you for all your comments. Very useful indeed, all suppporting a view that prep school is a way forward. I must say that in many ways I am breaking new grounds for me here, ie, discovering what CEs are etc, hence my ideas might seem strange to you - and hence also my post asking for your kind advice.

Before this week I thought that CE were just a standard entry exams. It certainly appears to be much more than that.

Your comments were really great. Thank you.

I especially like the part that I do not want him to get the bad start at Eton. This would be silly and counterproductive.

And yes I guess that I could have been bit prejudice on prep schools... as I thought that all they do is prepare the kids for the entry tests, but I recognise now that it is much more as the CE is more than just the iq tests that we had to write so far. If I can add, my prejudice os/was also somewhat based on the acceptance criteria into prep school - it appears to be hardly selective on talent.

Yes I am very much set on boarding. In fact I see this as a major reason for my choice of school, or even the private system. I will also feel much more comfortable personally to know that the 150k paid on education gives my son not just an alternative to great state education like excellent grammar, but that it will offer him a different education experience altogether. It could be just me though.

As to other minor issues: I think that grammar schools take on kids mid year when spaces come up so you do not waste a place from someone if you leave early. One of you is correct on Westminster - 11+ intake is automatic for the full 7 years. It would be interesting to find out if that would actually prepare my son for the CE.

As to finances: i am unlikely to meet the criteria for any means tested bursary, as they usually stop at combined 60k income, what might sound a lot, but anyone who lives in London in 6 person family will know that this does not get you that far.

Once again thank you for all your inputs. Perhaps it was not what I wanted, but it is what it is and I have to work with it. I must say that I am very surprised at the differences in state/private systems, even syllabuses at such early stage, etc. Its a good thing that at least GCSEs and A-levels are the same.

If you're going to go private, you might as well go to Eton - much more different than a bog standard private school.

If your son is bright, a bit of tutoring with someone who understands common entrance should be ok. A bright child can always catch up on latin and french.

I'm sure that my sisters and I would have been able to pass a common entrance exam on a bit of personal study, with some support. (We wouldn't have been accepted to Eton, though, due to gender)

As said before common entrance to Eton, Westminster, St Paul's is a minimum of 70% in each subject not 55% as in many schools so that is hard. In reality the boys will be getting 80+ in every subject. This does not give room for a weak subject. the biggest problem for state school educated boys will be the lack of French (standard expected is GCSE) and Latin as he will be competing with boys who have studied French 'properly' for 5 years and latin for 3. If you are a native French speaker then fine but if not he will be hugely disadvantaged and needs a school that will prepare at this level and will be able to accelerate him. Common entrance curriculum is very content-led so a grammar school will not cover the ground (nor will a 11-18 private school) except perhaps in maths and English and he will be disadvantaged. By way of example in Latin an 11+ entry school will cover book 1 Cambridge course in year 7, a accelerated course for children like your son will cover book 1-3 + another book in year 7 alone. They also have to do a geography project as part of the course and this would be very difficult without guidance. I am surprised Eton have not made this clear, st Pauls is very clear that if you intend to come at 13+ you need to have attended a 13+ prep school for the CE course. The ISEB curriculum is on the web do have a look and this will give you some idea of the expectations as mentioned before the exams are like a mini GCSE. I find your attitude to prep schools a bit strange as if you don't like the prep school atmosphere I would be pretty sure you may find Eton atmosphere not comfortable either.

I second what others have said about doing the two years at prep school.

The style of the Common Entrance papers is similar to GCSE (although of a lower standard). They are not like SATs papers.

The material for the French paper will not be taught in state school as the standard is very close to GCSE level. The Geography, work includes coursework from a fieldtrip with quite high academic demands (eg looking for a full evaluation rather than just descriptions). The RS work is different to a standard KS3 syllabus. For English, there are set texts, which may not be used in non-prep schools.

Prep schools are lovely for boys, especially a mixed one where the girls have left at 11+.

Well done to your son! However like others, I am surprised you did not get better info from Eton on this, and/or have not researched the whole thisng very carefully - surely you will have made several visits to the school, interviewed prospective housemasters etc?. Echo what others, especially LE said about prep schools.
Grammar schol will not be preparing for CE - you will need to go to a good prep - Eton normally recommend which ones. My DS is taking common entrance this year. He is a top achieving prep, and the Latin he is doing in Y8 covers what I did for A level (the grammar i mean, not the literature!)and his set also started Greek this year. The French grammar is also at least GCSE level. The boys are expected to achive above 70% to get into the top three schools.