Possible move to Scotland from England but should we be concerned about education?

[Wouldliketomove]

Hello Everyone,

As the title says, DH and I are carefully researching a possible move to Scotland for our family (two toddlers currently) but I am constantly reading worrying things about education in Scotland. I'm aware there are also soon to be significant changes, which complicates things further and introduces more unknowns.

Can anyone with experience either as teachers or parents offer a perspective on education in Scotland at the moment please or any further insight into what is to come? I have tried to read what is widely available.

Thanks very much in advance

This was a state school in Aberdeenshire. To be fair we did pay for additional maths tuition as dd did Higher maths and neither her dad nor I felt able to support.

I would tend to agree that an able child with supportive and interested parents will do well in most schools. We felt that dd had a better experience than her cousin in England who was in a county with grammar schools. Cousin was pretty stressed by SATs and 11plus and then found the whole secondary experience hugely stressful. In my opinion she didn't really fulfill her potential and would have had a better experience at dds school. This is of course my subjective experience.

I can also speak of my own experience as a working class kid in Glasgow at a very large comprehensive where much was expected of us and a large number of my cohort were the first in their families to go to university and become doctors, lawyers etc. In fairness I don't think Scottish education is as high quality as it was then.

I think the fact that you are asking the question means your kids will be fine whatever school in which ever system you choose. You are invested in them having a good start to life. Supported children do well in England and Scotland.
Out of my 3 educated in scotland. one attended the highest ranking secondary school in our region. And in the top 25 for Scotland at the time. We had to remove him midway through 5th year. After years of low level bullying culminate in actual violence. He also had a terrible experience at primary but with teaching staff.
Pupil behaviour was very poorly managed and academic success meant you could behave how you liked.
The other 2 attended the lowest ranking, lowest attended secondary in the most deprived area of the region. They thrived achieving straight A's ( one through COVID). Smaller classes, focus on well being, boundaries and behaviour expectations, great extra curriculars, and us as invested parents offering a broad range of experiences and additional support in subjects of interest or that they needed additional tuition in resulted in well rounded young people who have gone on to excellence in their chosen fields.
The advice I would pass on is whatever system you choose, visits the schools , choose the one that feels right for your child and get involved in school/ community life.

So...here's my take on it.

I have one who has done P1 to S6 (now left school ) , one is S5, one in P6 and one in P5.

Anyone that is JAM gets left to struggle on. I have had to fight for dyslexia assessment for my DS starting P6. He's around half way through the assessment now.

I agree with a PP that children are not pushed enough if academically able. My 16yo had achieved 8 straight As at Nat 5 level but he's driven to do well. Others like my eldest who achieved a mix of As and Bs had additional needs and I had to fight to get him the support he needed. He left school with 5 Highers and a Advanced Higher in the subject he's currently studying beyond secondary school. It hasn't been easy.

I hate the vagueness of how well they're doing. I don't want to hear my child is in the triangle group for reading. What on earth is that telling me?! I have to specifically ask so where is X in comparison to the rest of the class?

Musically there is a lot going on in the local authority and all my children have/had an opportunity to practise an instrument. This I cannot complain about. The tuition fees are waived -another plus in the Scottish education system.
I know many of us are painting it black but there are many positives too. My 10yo is in P6 and got a bonus year at nursery as his speech wasn't where it should be so there's this aspect that's useful. No rush to start P1. Deferrals are widely accepted.

I should also add one had severe dyslexia (he does read in any normal understanding of the process)and had excellent support and technology at secondary. And one has autism.
The support they got was very dependent on the schools they were in, peers at other schools in the same region did not have the same access to support or understanding of their needs.

As I understand it, the old Scottish school system, which was highly regarded internationally, has been completely dismantled and replaced with the current system. It doesn't bode well for the future.

As a teacher recommending a school to English parents, I would suggest here:

https://www.enlighten.scot/publication/how-knowledge-based-curriculum-could-transform-scottish-education/

There are (I think) 4 specialist music schools
in Scotland - here’s the info on the Edinburgh one www.edinburgh.gov.uk/school-places/specialist-schools

My DC read Romeo & Juliet for Higher English.
my DCs flat mate took Nat 5 maths in P7, one of the kids in DC1s maths class sat Higher Maths in S3,, in DC2 fifth year there were several kids doing 6 highers or advanced Highers. It must be very school dependant as to whether academic kids get pushed - obviously that is an issue.

This wouldn’t be such an issue if the SNP admitted that education had gone to shit and decided to do something about it, but they won’t admit it so nothing will happen.

There is a huge difference between the two systems in terms of content examined.

As an example if you look at Maths:-

GCSE
2 years learning
3 papers 1hr 30 mins each
Total 4 hrs 30

Scottish National 5
1 year learning
2 papers 1hr and 1hr 30
Total 2 hrs 30

A Level
2 years learning
3 papers 2hrs each
Total 6 hrs

Scottish Higher
1 year learning
2 papers 1hr 30 and 1 hrs 45
Total 3hrs 15

Scottish Advanced Higher
1 year learning
2 papers - 1 hr and 2hrs 30
Total 3hrs 30

At GCSE an average student will sit 30-35 hours of exams whilst a Scottish Nat 5 student will sit 13-15 hours. Putting aside the question as to whether exams are the correct way to assess 16 year olds the English system is more academically challenging, I'm not sure you can argue otherwise.

My DC did a Higher with minimal teaching time and minimal revision (it did have a practical element in addition to the written paper) they scored an A. Their A Levels were completely different. Months of work and revision, came out with Bs.

I don't think people realise the difference. If a school offers both then the Scottish qualifications will be recommended to those who are not as academically strong.

I've read a fair few of these threads and everyone who moves their child from the English system to the Scottish system, or who has worked in both systems, seems to agree that by the end of primary school Scottish children are literally years behind English children.

You then have the first years of secondary, which are very, very relaxed. It's acknowledged that lots of children take time off school, because it's very easy to do so, whereas in England the schools are very strict about this and parents can be fined. It's acknowledged that there's a very serious problem with bad behaviour and violence, which the schools are essentially not allowed to do anything about (it's bad in England too, but the schools have far more freedom to discipline and expel, and there's more special needs provision there). Plus children have one less year at school - with a one year 6th form.

So leaving aside the many other issues which have been discussed on this thread, how on earth are some people claiming that Scottish children leave school with the same level of education as English children?

You are right. They don't. I suppose they have an extra year of University to catch up.

It might be argued that Advanced Highers are harder than A Levels (I'm not sure i agree) but this year there were only 29,700 entries at that level (compared to 339,760 at Nat 5 and 207,980 for Highers) so even if they are harder relatively few people sit them.

Just to pick up one thing though, there are the same number of school years. Seven years at primary school, six years at secondary. I'm not counting the Reception year in England as I think it's not compulsory?

Year 11 - 4th year when you sit Nat 5s
Year 12 - 5th year when you sit Highers
Year 13 - 6th year when you can sit a combination of Advanced Highers, more Highers or more Nat 5s or often spent messing around for the year if you've been given an unconditional university place based on your Highers.

In England nobody seems to consider Reception to be optional. I've never come across or even heard of a child who missed Reception. One of my children moved to the Scottish system, and ended up with one year less in education than their entire peer group in England.

I've just asked ChatGpt about this, and it told me that missing Reception is discouraged and is "statistically rare".

I’m pretty sure Michael Gove went to a private school.

I’m not claiming that, I’m claiming that I think the system here in Scotland suits my daughter better. She would have found the exams and stress of testing and applying for high school really difficult. She fell apart hard at the start of high school - she’s autistic and anxious and a perfectionist and change is really, really hard for her. I think shed have really struggled in the English system. Here she’s at high school with 90% of her primary school which really helped her settle. She’s challenged and interested in learning and doing really well now in s3, but we had a very difficult 6 months to start.

My son actually would probably thrive in England. He loves tests and challenges and winning and is very academic. He’s finding it harder here as he’s bored. So all I was trying to get across is that it depends so much on what your kids are like and it’s impossible to know that when they’re babies.

I didn't bother doing any SYS (sorry i am ancient) in any subject, or A Highers as they're now known. I got a degree with only Highers. And they weren't extraordinary grades either. But succeeded out of school regardless....A Highers are useless. Only fine to use up your time until school finishes. It's usually first year of uni equivalent. That's really about it. Gives the academically able something to do until they get to uni.

I've said that the first few years of secondary are extremely laid back in Scotland - or they certainly were in our case. So if your child gets stressed from being pushed academically, that might suit them better from an emotional point of view. I'm not convinced that this laid-back approach to education helps children overall, though. Especially when they're being told that they're actually working hard and doing very difficult stuff. I understand that you're talking about a grammar school area in England, when doing your comparison. The huge majority of English children aren't in grammar school areas. Even when they are, there is absolutely no obligation to put your child forward for the 11+ - in fact most children don't sit it and just go to the local comprehensive, though that's not as taken for granted as it is in Scotland.

I've read the stories about extreme strictness in some English secondary schools (academies seem to be prone to this) over wearing exactly the right school uniform, never missing a day of school almost regardless of the circumstances, being put in a room by yourself for the day if you forget your ruler, or whatever. That sounds way over the top to me. I prefer the relaxed attitude taken to school uniform, dyed hair etc in Scotland. But Scottish schools seem to be too lax on attendance. The message to both pupils and parents is that school isn't important and doesn't have to be taken seriously. There are also huge discipline problems. I've heard some awful stories about behaviour at local schools - with the children essentially being allowed to do what the fuck they want. The Scottish government is doing nothing to address this, with teachers basically not being allowed to punish children.

This thread is about comparing the Scottish education system with the English education system. I certainly wouldn't try to argue that England is doing particularly well. Other countries are doing better. I've been astonished to learn just how advanced some foreign teenagers I know are, compared with children in Scotland. And not every education system is overloaded with admin tasks or has problems with discipline. I've spoken to teachers from other countries who love their jobs. I've spoken to children and teachers who never encounter significant bad behaviour in their lessons. If you mention pupil violence to them, they look at you in astonishment. I think this largely comes down to the attitude of parents - if they respect and support the teachers, their children respect the teachers. If they take education seriously, so do their children. But I appreciate that there's more to it than that in Scotland. For instance the issue of children with serious special needs being in mainstream, the government not allowing discipline in school, as well as other issues.

I guess I’d say that having information loaded into them isn’t really my focus of education in high school. I am sure my daughter knows ‘less’ than my family in the states and probably than her comparators in England. But she’s learning things that weren’t a focus for me - ‘how’ to learn, how to be self sufficient, how to work in a group, how to be part of a community. There’s so much about consent and paying your own bills and current events and how to question the things around you. She’s becoming very interesting which is fun to watch.

Yes, none here either, I just did some more Highers and a Standard Grade in a subject I was vaguely interested in. For many Sixth year is often just filling a gap and a lot of students are sitting with unconditional entries after their Highers but at the same time I suppose it allows many a second chance to get the qualifications that they might have missed in 5th year. That's a definite advantage.

Some universities can't seem to get to grip with the differences either. At one English University DC looked at English students asked for AAA while Scottish students asked for one Advanced Higher at A and BBBB at Higher which doesn't seem to match up at all.

I agree it depends on the child and even they change hugely as they age so hard to predict what might be better. Free university tuition is huge bonus although surely that can't last much longer particularly if Scottish students don't get places as those places are capped. Overall I don't think Scottish education is in great shape just now. I do work in the sector but I'm not an expert and maybe England is just as bad but with harder academic testing?

I think sixth year needs a rethink. It’s such a doss for so many students with unconditional offers it’s a bit useless. Gets them in the wrong mindset before uni.

Not just "having information loaded into you". Getting into the habit of reading for pleasure - moving from babyish books to good literature. Analysing, comparing, discussing, debating, learning how to think critically, writing good essays expressing your own views. Learning about modern history from around the world which has made the world what it is today so that when you leave school you're not completely ignorant of the world outside Scotland. Learning how to communicate in another language. I could go on.
Learning "skills" without learning content has been shown not to work. You learn both at the same time.

Probably but you don't tend to get the unconditional offers until Jan/Feb/March of S6 so that's almost in the revision period for Advanced Highers.

This also raises the question of whether schools should now be teaching everything that used to be taught by parents - eg paying bills - rather than focusing on academic work. And surely "being part of a community" and working with others and self-study is more or less an inevitable part of going to school, rather than something that's taught. That shouldn't be taking up much if any lesson time.

Yes, he did. But back then the Scottish state system wasn't that far off the private schools. I went to a comprehensive with a very bad reputation in Ayrshire in the 1970s and even there, most of the teachers wore black gowns and lots of us went to university.

So many different variables.

My DC went through the English system and in comparison to their Scottish cousins, I felt they worked harder and took the whole process of exams much more seriously.

Thank you to the previous poster who broke down the number of extra papers English students sit.
Are they all a waste of time?
Or is there more academic rigour in the English system?
My DC left the English system academically strong, prepared for university and with a wide range of extracurricular abilities.

Sixth form seemed like a complete waste of time in Scotland for most of our family members.
They already had offers from universities so just messed about in Sixth year.
I was very surprised that they were allowed to arrive late to school, not turn up for classes etc
This was in a school which is very highly regarded.

The most striking difference was the approach to university education.
Everyone in our family is university educated with middle class professions so all the cousins come from very similar backgrounds.

The Scots have all flitted between courses, waxed lyrical about their ‘free’ university education, taken 5 years to complete a 4 year degree, 4 years to complete an Ordinary degree and in general have a very laissez faire attitude to absolutely everything.

This is in stark contrast to my DC and their peer group.

All of this is anecdata and I’m sure that the majority of Scottish students have much more gumption and ambition than my family and my husband’s family members.
I can’t help looking at the SNP govt and thinking that the education system is a reflection of their talk a big game but the substance is lacking.

The Scottish system is unrecognisable from my day and I’m not that ancient.

Well, all I can see is my DCs left their Scottish school very hard working, at uni with loads of high achieving English students and don’t feel they have been behind at any stage. DC’s friend at Oxbridge came out with First-level grades at the end of their first year. My DB’s DC1 left school in England with very middling A Level results (actually 2’A levels and 1 B tech) and got into a good university (to the surprise of his professor parents), seems to be doing fine. Their DC2 still hasn’t looked at their exam results. Horses for courses.