Possible move to Scotland from England but should we be concerned about education?

[Wouldliketomove]

Hello Everyone,

As the title says, DH and I are carefully researching a possible move to Scotland for our family (two toddlers currently) but I am constantly reading worrying things about education in Scotland. I'm aware there are also soon to be significant changes, which complicates things further and introduces more unknowns.

Can anyone with experience either as teachers or parents offer a perspective on education in Scotland at the moment please or any further insight into what is to come? I have tried to read what is widely available.

Thanks very much in advance

I wonder whether listening to audiobooks in the car or wherever would help. If he enjoys the audiobook, he could then read the book to you. And just reading to children at bedtime helps, if you can get him to listen to you.
This book may be worth a look. I've used Peggy Kaye's "Games for Writing" and it's good.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303438049464?_skw=games+for+reading+peggy+kaye&epid=168075311&itmmeta=01M4ZQ314JSBQ0EFNWDP2NF8FW&hash

The National Literacy Trust are very pro audiobooks, particularly for young readers, so yes, that's a good idea.

Thanks @Scrumptiouslyy!

I have worked as a primary teacher in England at a very well respected school and at state schools in Scotland.

My experience of England was before I became a parent. My views on Scottish education have changed since becoming a parent.

key points:

-scrutiny in England of learning and teacher is much MUCH more robust. When I moved to Scotland I kept waiting for someone to come and check my planning, my books or pop in during a lesson. Nobody came. You are pretty much left to your own devices and teachers in Scotland have SO much autonomy.

-Working in Scotland, for the above reason, is so much better for mental health. You can get on with your job, you don’t need to worry about the management popping unexpectedly into your class and looking through your jotters etc (this happened a lot where I taught in England).

-Well- being of staff and children is prioritised more here. This is based on my experience teaching in mainstream and how SEN was approached and how struggling learners were supported in terms of well-being.

-Teaching and learning under the English curriculum is much more thorough and children who aren’t keeping up are MUCH more likely to receive extra help and support in order to try to bring up levels. Data is monitored really well and assessment is used frequently to inform input. Again, scrutiny.

—The biggest concern for me now as a parent with a child in a Scottish state school is how unconcerned teachers and management seem to be regarding children who are falling far behind. There’s no real sense of urgency and expectation that all children should leave primary at a certain standard. For example, my DS has been On the same level of reading book for a year. I am supporting him heavily at home but I’m not sure anyone has even assessed his level formally and there have been no interventions to bring him up to level. If he was in an English school he would almost certainly be receiving extra input. I’m at the point of doing my own assessments at home to check level.
From a writing point of view- it’s abysmal and what I’ve seen in jotters (or not seen) is shocking.

I’m a teacher and a parent. I think the English system is shocking and I will never understand why TAs and those without proper subject qualifications are allowed to teach. We have a much more robust profession up here with higher entry standards and those standards monitored by the GTCS. We have to prove our PR&D every year with a GTCS check every 5 years.

as a parent, my child gets an amazing education. They are only early primary but can read and write, speaks French, gets lessons in art, music and science regularly and outdoor learning is part of the curriculum. My child is thriving and cared for and supported at school. I couldn’t ask for more.

I’ll have to disagree with you there about robust standards. When was the last time those standards were robustly monitored in any way shape or form aside from an end of year ‘review’ which is never followed up on.

It’s nice your child does well and children who are going to do well anyway generally do. That’s not all children though.

We are accountable to our SLT. We have twice monthly data meetings. We are interrogated on our attainment and our interventions. So don’t tell me the Scottish system isn’t robust. It maybe isn’t where you are. It certainly is here.

I’ve worked in many different Scottish schools. Twice monthly data meetings- I simply don’t believe you

Not only is twice monthly a complete overkill (how much progress are you expecting to see every two weeks ?) but it would also make no sense in terms of balancing out the working time agreement. So I don’t believe this happens.

Yes there are data meetings maybe termly
and the odd lesson observation. But the follow up and resources in place to support intervention are sadly lacking. It’s also too dependent on how good the teacher is rather than how good the supports and tracking are around the teacher. You can have a meeting and see that X child isn’t in track and then what? There may be a discussion around an intervention but what happens if the teacher doesn’t follow through with that? Absolutely nothing!

Well-being of staff and children is prioritised more here.

• @Warmhearth I am interested to hear how the wellbeing of children who are the victims* of classroom violence are prioritised here in Scotland. Very much not the case in my distressing experience. Children are left to assault other children day and yet day and the police and schools are powerless to do anything as no child is every permanently excluded - when they should be!

I agree. Violence is a major issue.

I suppose I was thinking of the push for academic achievement and attendance above all else and the pressure put on children due to ofsted worries.

And just because violence is an issue doesn’t mean schools and teachers aren’t doing anything for other children. In my current school we have inclusive approach to support ASN and wouldn’t make a dyslexic child complete a long spelling test, for example. That’s prioritising the child’s well being above the assessment requirements of the school.

It doesn’t mean the system is perfect but it’s also not all bad. Teachers don’t have adequate ways to manage and control dysregulated behaviours because there is no real plan in place to protect other children in the school or staff from verbal and physical assault. Yes it’s awful.

Haha. You are primary. What can you know about the workings of secondary? The tracking of attainment and following up on interventions. To say you “don’t believe” what goes on in my local authority is hilarious, arrogant and ignorant. Your knowledge of lesson observations is also wildly off the mark. I am absolutely confident in the tracking and support the pupils in my setting recieve and our results speak for themselves. Not interested in engaging with you any further.

Have to question the assertion that wellbeing of staff is prioritised. I’m really unsure how. Violence towards staff is going through the roof in many areas, including lots of leafy ones. Very little is done to protect staff. There are very few consequences for the perpetrators and they know this.

Wider aspects of pupil wellbeing are prioritised and I can recognised things like not forcing a lengthy spelling test on a dyslexic pupil. However, pupils are seeing abuse and violence towards themselves and staff regularly and this is certainly not prioritising their wellbeing.

We have tracking meetings twice a term and they are part of the Working Time Agreement. From these learners off track are identified and, as a class teacher, I have to be able to discuss the interventions I have in place to target them and address the issues.

Our planning is online and can be accessed by anyone at anytime. No one asks for it regularly but we do have dates we have to have it ready for. As a professional I am quite happy with that as I don’t need someone to micro manage me. I’m not sure why not trusting people to plan without collecting it in is something to aspire to?

@Chocolateforbreakfasttoday You say that "learners off track are identified". Can I ask how your school defines "learners off track"?

So are these learners those who are not doing well in a general sense (eg expected to fail some of their next public exams, or thought to be capable of Nat 5s but not Highers), or does the definition include learners who are doing "quite well" - eg on track to pass 5 Highers - but are not doing as well as might be expected based on their ability/potential (eg not now on track to get the 5 As in Highers they were previously expected to get)?

I think that in England children are, from the start of secondary school, predicted to get certain grades in their GCSEs, so that they are seen as being off track if they are no longer likely to get those grades (unless that system has been replaced recently).

Just to add that in England the ehc plan system means that many children with sen have a legal right to support. The system is not without its faults but the funding mechanism has lead to the availability of specialist provision which isn't so available in Scotland.

We were living in England when my daughter was diagnosed with autism and she got a then Statement (later on an ehc). She attended a privately established speech and language school at secondary level - we ended up staying as there was nothing remotely comparable in Scotland. The ehc meant she could be attending college and other provision up to age 25.

My nephews attended school on Scotland, both autistic, and they got no extra support at all. A friend in Scotland whose daughter has a learning disability left school at 16 - here she would have been supported up to age 25.

I know it isn't an issue if your child doesn't have sen, but the gap between what is available in England versus Scotland is huge.

Same with behavioural problems where England has PRUs, where the student is given suitable education in a therapeutic environment- my nephew went to one and it completely turned him round and he stayed in touch with some of his teachers for years afterwards (it's not the boot camp some people think it might be).

Not having PRUs fails all students, those that would benefit from going to one, and those who would hugely benefit from not having the PRU child sat next to them in class. Why on earth does the SNP think they’re a bad thing?

I’ve said it is nuanced and haven’t denied there are issues with behaviour that affect well- being. When I talk about staff well-being I’m reflecting on my experience in both systems. In Scotland we have a working time agreement that we are not expected to go over and SLT know that. In England I was expected to do everything asked of me and attend as many meetings and CPD sessions as they expected me too. There were several members of staff who just ‘disappeared’ because I worked in an academy and SLT could legally sack good teachers who weren’t doing 12 hour days or who they deemed to be not working hard enough . I’m not making this up. I was constantly terrified of losing my job.

I was actually pretty surprised at how seriously the WTA is here. Obviously teachers do go over their agreement but SLT can’t just add an extra two hour meeting in at their whim which is what happened frequently in England.

I can talk about well- being in a broader sense without having to say ‘it is all shit’ because it isn’t.

At the same time, as a pp mentioned, I was equally surprised that a child with autism is not entitled to any extra funding or support. In my class in England I had 1 class support assistant and 1 ASN assistant. I was pretty shocked to discover most classes here in Scotland rarely had a PSA available to do interventions or support ASN pupils. How is it fair that a class teacher with 32 pupils can teach all day, with several ASN pupils needing individual attention? It doesn’t work and we can see it doesn’t and that’s why we have kids running through corridors and causing mayhem.

I’ve also agreed teachers do track learners and identify children not on track but my question is what accountability is there is some teachers just don’t follow through with that? Yes professional independence is important but so is the one chance at education of the children in the class. Not every teacher is a good one sadly. And the system needs to be able to identify failures more robustly.

OP don’t do it. Just don’t

my eldest was a bright and happy kid who couldn’t cope with the violence from senior one. Things being thrown, shoved etc. she became mentally unwell and eventually dropped out and she remains out of education.

nothing is done to combat violence. It’s normalised. There is nowhere for these kids to go.

standards are overall very low and slipping,

On the SEN and special schools issue, I went to the local hustings before the last Scottish elections. A couple of parents talked, with strong emotions, about the awful time their SEN children were having in mainstream schools. The candidates didn't seem remotely informed about or interested in discussing this issue. The Green candidate repeated a couple of times that SEN children "are often very intelligent, and they deserve an education." No-one is suggesting that they shouldn't receive an education. If the Scottish government hadn't shut down the Special Needs Schools, they'd be receiving a much better education, adapted to their needs, and so would the rest of their mainstream class.

Here's another specialist school, for children with autism, gone. Because local authorities are sending everyone to mainstream. Does anyone doubt that it's a political decision, rather than based on the best interests of children?

Scottish school for children with autism to shut down after 50 years | The National

Cheaper, and the best bit is they get to say that they’re being ‘inclusive’ which sounds very group huggy!

whenever I see ‘inclusive’ I like to identify who’s being excluded. With the ‘inclusion’ of trans women in women’s single sex spaces, it’s iof 51% of the population that’s being excluded. Here it’s the children who just want to go to school and learn in a safe, calm classroom, and the children who find mainstream overwhelming and need a specialist setting.

It’s a disgusting way to treat children.

There's a piece of research on the Curriculum for Excellence by the University of Stirling here, for anyone who's interested.

Developing Curriculum for Excellence

If your children haven’t started school yet - if they are young enough to start p1 consider Gaelic medium education if in the big cities. High quality education, they become bilingual very quickly and a great community to be part of.

I've heard mixed reviews from friends with kids in Gaelic medium school - including the school failing to spot significant dyslexia. It is a way of gaming the catchment school areas though if your local English language primary is poor.

Prefer the Scottish system to the English system eg that extra year at Primary. Also our granddaughter's school is first class at fostering a community/family vibe that I have never encountered elsewhere bar "Northern" Ireland.

All that said, some of the other primaries near us have "issues" like disruptive behaviour or lack of art/music.

Prefer the Scottish system to the English system eg that extra year at Primary.

Didn't much like that myself. By P7 the boys were as tall as me, and many of the kids looked like adults. Obviously it's not just about looks, but maturity-wise as well I felt they were overdue for moving on.