Possible move to Scotland from England but should we be concerned about education?

[Wouldliketomove]

Hello Everyone,

As the title says, DH and I are carefully researching a possible move to Scotland for our family (two toddlers currently) but I am constantly reading worrying things about education in Scotland. I'm aware there are also soon to be significant changes, which complicates things further and introduces more unknowns.

Can anyone with experience either as teachers or parents offer a perspective on education in Scotland at the moment please or any further insight into what is to come? I have tried to read what is widely available.

Thanks very much in advance

Im Scottish but living in south of England. Many friends and family with kids in both systems. The Scottish system is a lot more straight forward. You live somewhere, you go to whatever school you are allocated in that catchment and 99% of the time you go to that school. You may get a placement request for another but unlikely. So you basically know what school you will go to (unless you can go private). Where we are there are so many options, selective school, catholic school, sports / other scholarship, this borough, another boriugh, banded tests , sats. It goes on!

However, the English system gives you choice. There also sixth form colleges that you can go to so an exit point from a crap secondary. Nothing like that exists. Scotland has a truelly comprehensive system.

I think A levels are far better than highers. When I was at school it was very rare to get 5As and now it's not. From what my friends and family say the standard has been weathered down a lot. I also noticed (I went to uni in England) that is Scots were younger and not as well prepared as the English students. I was 17 when I went to uni, even though I did 6th year. Far too young. So I would be wary to be honest. The safest bet is to head to a solid middle class catchment if you can but also be careful as sometimes if the school is full you may be sent to a less desirable one in the county.

The pay off is a free university education - if this lasts.

They aren't excluded.

And as isn't an excuse to hurt others.

Agree that the specialised schools need re opened.

My DCs primary and secondary schools had setting. There were 5 different levels for Maths at primary and three at secondary.

At their secondary there were kids sitting exams early and others who were working their way up through Nat 4, Nat 5, Highers. There was a lot of flexibility.

I’m sure it differs a lot between schools. I went to a very rural school which wasn’t very big and the breadth of curriculum wasn’t terrible but certainly didn’t have the range of that others I met at uni had. This was one of the reasons I chose to be in a city. Sometimes even if a school does offer all the options a pupil wants to do, they might not fit into the timetable options but if there is another school close by offering the same subject at a different time, going there for that subject can make things work.

My DCs school isn’t middle class but has done well for mine, DC1’s friend went to Oxbridge and a few usually do every year. I’ve explicitly asked the DCs about disruption and they just looked bemused and said no (and it wouldn’t take much to freak them out). I think sometimes the less middle class schools are more equipped to deal with issues but that’s just based on anecdotes and I accept I could be talking utter bollocks.

It was very rare to get 5A at Highers wheh I was at school and no, it’s not now (both mine have 5As and they are clever enough and pretty organised but I don’t think they are geniuses
and nor to do they). The same must hold in England though with A levels? I think 30% of grades are A (inc A*) for both systems.

I do think the A level system is much more stressful. There is a general sense up here that if unless you have very specific course targets such as medicine etc then if things don’t go as expected in S5 then S6 gives a chance to fix things.

This isn’t a comment about the different UK systems but I have just watched a friend’s DC go to a good uni via an HND which was a good reminder that there are other routes out there to get to the same place.

I will say though, both my DCs worked far far harder at school than I ever did (and I think I studied a similar amount to friends). They also took available help much more readily than I did. I don’t remember it being around as much when I was at school but there may have been some -
I don’t think there was nearly such a culture of going to lunchtime or after school extra study sessions. At DCs school there was absolutely no vibe of it being uncool to work hard.

Wow.

I had previously thought my frustration with the central belt centric approach to public services was an unfounded bias. Seems I’m more right than I thought.

As for the high school comment, in my experience most pupils educational experience runs from starting primary to leaving high school. Choice existing for part of that journey isnt choir for that pupil for their education.

I have no idea what your last sentence even means, is it Doric?

Are you still trying to backtrack over the school thing?

I agree, I went to a large school that at the time had over 1400 pupils and I still wasn’t able to get all the subjects I wanted.

Schools purely in middle class areas can also cause kids as many problems as they solve, being sheltered does not help them in the world.

Typo.

choir should be choice.

I don’t see choice for part of a pupils education equating to a choice for their education.

I’ll happily acknowledge that my statement failed to acknowledge that Aberdeen city offers a choice to pupils during their primary years in some areas of the city .

I stand by the statement that choice of 2 schools isnt available available in Aberdeen city or shire. Shire has none at any point. Some of city has it for part of the school age range.

You could have just said that in the first place instead of doubling down and pretending the conversation was only about high schools.

However, not worth arguing over so apology accepted.

Out of curiosity though I checked data on access to RC High Schools, 87% of Scots pupils have an allocated catchment for them.

Aberdeen is the only (reasonably) densely populated area without them, went down a bit of a rabbit hole with this and apparently there has been a recent campaign to get one which was defeated by one vote in a council meeting last year.

Interestingly both Labour and Tory councillors worked together to try and get one, stating that the lack of one was ‘impossible to justify’.

Also seems to be a lot of lobbying by groups like the National Secular Society and others.

So seems like this is very much a live issue in Aberdeen City at least.

I've and my sons experienced education in England and Scotland. All three are rounded, positive contributors to society. Two went on to university. All three are employed, one currently travelling the world.
I also work across all four UK education systems as a consultant.
You can argue all the differences you like, you can judge Scotland from an English perspective. But at the end of the day, it's a good solid education just very different from England - but England is the most extreme education system in the UK and most English folk do not realise it.

Interesting to read such different perspectives! We moved with the children going from YR>P2, Y3>P5 and Y5>P7. Middle one was fine, no noticeable difference. Youngest was waaay ahead particularly in literacy. But the biggest difference was P7 vs Y6. No SATs and all of the last term was about prepping them to go to secondary: week long residential, school show, loads of trips, loads of project-based/community stuff. The impact on her mental health/self-esteem/confidence was mega and shes just started S1 in such a good place. IME so much more space to kind of figure out who they are and their place in the world and be a lot more well-rounded rather than just cramming stuff in and getting stressed out. So glad we did it tbh!

Possibly not of interest to you, but worth mentioning that in many areas now you actually have a choice of three catchment schools: local non-dom, RC, and Gaelic medium. Just in case you’re keen on a bilingual education!

’Being sheltered’ ? Depends what you mean. Any kid of average intelligence doesn’t get to adulthood without watching tv or YouTube or reading a book and seeing that different people have different wealth, attitudes and behaviours.

You don’t need to personally experience physical or sexual violence or poor attitudes to hard work and standards to understand that the world contains it.

Many prefer to maximise their children’s chances of a happy, safe, useful school environment in their most formative years. Many schools with a very mixed intake still share a parent group with a strong devotion to their children’s welfare and high expectations of their behaviour and achievement. That’s what IMO you look for.

Interesting! In what way is English system Extreme do you think?

I'm interested in the vehement anti- snp line attack on Scottish education when it seems Scottish education is so much more up to the headteacher/school/council. Whereas English education can be upended by the latest education minister. Does that reflect what you see?

My DC "did very well at school" - in that they came out with excellent grades in both Highers and Advanced Highers. Did they have a good education? Absolutely not. Moving my child into the Scottish education system is my greatest regret about moving to Scotland. I know a lot of young people from different education systems, and Scotland is a very long way behind. How much has your 17 year old actually learnt about the world? What books have they read? What are their skills? What is their attitude to learning?

Of course the current English system was largely put in place by Michael Gove, who is Scottish! He was harking back to his educational experiences in Scotland in the 1970s.

If would be BRILLIANT if the Scottish government could follow his lead. Educational achievement is falling off a cliff year after year.

Hi everyone,

Thanks again so much for all of your replies. I am learning a lot but do feel completely torn. I had a terrible time at school with lots of bullying and also felt the pressure from exams very heavily. I really want them to have a much more positive experience and of course to be equipped with a solid education so they have the chance to do whatever they choose to in life. We moved (albeit a very short move) to be near a secondary that has been outstanding for a long time for this reason.

However (and I don't know how open to be about this because I know it's all highly controversial and I don't know how it'll be received) - this year down south (ish) in England has been a bit of a wake up call for DH and I in terms of the climate and the changes and challenges we're seeing. A significant number of houses have been burned to the ground, 2 trains derailed in the heat (DH currently is required to commute via train), we've had to seal the house off as best we can due to smoke from fires (sometimes in very high heat and needing to decide if it's better to try and cool the house down a little or keep the smoke out of the kids rooms), we're in a drought and have reached nearly 40 degrees with schools and nurseries closing or closing early. It's just led DH and I to wonder how much worse this is going to get and how fast. It has also been DH's dream to move to Scotland since well before we met.

I realise Scotland faces its own very real challenges and dangers in relation to climate change and don't want to minimise those at all, but we have been looking into where our children would be safer and have a better quality of life overall as carefully as we can. Of course though, education is a massive part of that so now feeling a bit stumped on the matter!

For those asking about regions we'd be looking at, that's still very open. However, places most likely re work etc include Perth, Inverness and Glasgow. I realise these are also large areas mind. Or perhaps we should just stay put altogether. Like I say... Stumped! But very grateful for all this input, so thank you again for the replies so far.

If you decide to come, I'd plan to do a lot outside of school to help your children to get a better education than is likely to be offered by the state schools your children go to. I don't know what your financial circumstances are, but for instance good music lessons and holiday courses, online language lessons with native speakers and foreign language exchanges (doesn't have to be the language your school offers), possibly an international GCSE or 2 (my DC did a history GCSE remotely - they didn't take the exam, but the content was very interesting (Chinese modern history)). And lots of encouragement with reading for pleasure. At my DC's secondary school the children, even at Higher English level, weren't expected to be capable of reading a complete book.
Basically, providing them with the opportunity to widen their horizons, to push themselves and to make real progress at their own speed. Focusing on a language helps them to learn about foreign cultures, to talk to foreign people, etc.
But you can't get away from the fact that they spend a huge chunk of their time at school, and cramming for the tedious Scottish exams. Though I have heard that the Scottish government is considering getting rid of some exams (further dumbing down exercise I think).

The 3 Catholic primary schools in Aberdeen offer the possibility of Catholic education to all primary pupils in the City. If you want your child to go a Catholic primary you'd be allocated one of the 3. Also there certainly were some children in the Shire who went to Catholic primary in the City - I knew of a couple personally.

Edited to add so it is not correct to say that choice of primary schools exists for only some pupils in Aberdeen - it exists for them all as there are Catholic primaries. I believe there is assistance with travel for those accessing Catholic education in the City who require it.

Also with regards to Advanced Highers - there may be less teaching time than for A levels but AH require significant levels of independent study which is excellent preparation for university. I agree CfE is deeply flawed but in my experience my dd did learn how to study and to work independently in contrast to her similarly aged cousin in England.

I also think the truly comprehensive nature of Scottish secondaries is a plus - my niece, who was very talented musically, was almost completely put off music by the school refusing to cover anything other than recent pop music as "classical is too niche". By contrast my dd was doing a mix of traditional Scottish ,classical and modern music in a range of school orchestras.

Your school had several different types of orchestra, playing music at a high level? Your child was very lucky.

I think she had a good experience overall and yes there were strong music and art departments with decent teaching and extra curricular activity. A number of her year group went on to good universities including in England and of her immediate group of friends at least 3 have completed masters/PhDs
Edited for typos

@Stillreadingalot thanks for the replies. Was this a private school or state school?