Possible move to Scotland from England but should we be concerned about education?

[Wouldliketomove]

Hello Everyone,

As the title says, DH and I are carefully researching a possible move to Scotland for our family (two toddlers currently) but I am constantly reading worrying things about education in Scotland. I'm aware there are also soon to be significant changes, which complicates things further and introduces more unknowns.

Can anyone with experience either as teachers or parents offer a perspective on education in Scotland at the moment please or any further insight into what is to come? I have tried to read what is widely available.

Thanks very much in advance

We moved several years ago and have got some experience of English primary education, Scottish primary and Scottish secondary education. The systems are surprisingly different, I hadn’t appreciated that even age at starting school is different (4.5-5.5 with official Feb cut off, but in practice Dec). My experience in both countries is just of highly rated state schools in a fairly affluent areas with well educated parents. My impression is that the Scottish curriculum is just as good or better for the engaged and for less academic children. Lots of wellbeing support, PE, focus on social skills and employment options as well as extracurricular. But to me it seems they’re much less as focused on every child’s achievements in late primary/earlier secondary, and it’s only in the exam phase when it’s suddenly all systems go. Which means that children who are bright but not naturally hard working can coast their way through and then suddenly realise they’ve got gaps, or that their general non-examined knowledge isn’t that great. Generally mine has been very happy at school but even he said that school in England felt harder, more competitive and had made him work more.

I'm in a non affluent area at state school and our kids are working above expectations under the Curriculum for Excellence. One of mine is P7 so he'll get standardised tests this year which is the first proper indication of how they're doing.

One thing I dislike is lack of artistic subjects, they get 1 hour of taught art a week and very little music. No free musical instrument lessons. No drama except if there is a production.

Teachers will probably be able to give a more informed perspective.

I have been critical of the Scottish system to my DB in England but he wished his DS had been through it rather than the English system as he went from being in the gifted and talented stream to panic and school refusing during his A Levels. After much pleading with the school, he was allowed to take the year out and redo a year. The Scottish system with Highers feels a bit more forgiving in that respect (unless the aim is to do medicine etc), the final years of school don’t represent the same type of cliff edge.

Having taught both sides of the border, the discrepancy is huge. I have P6s writing at a Y2 level and it’s not concerning or considered a huge problem. And I don’t mean the odd child or two with extenuating circumstances, I mean the brightest kids in the class are on a par with the brightest Y2s.

That said, I am raising my children here as I do think overall quality of life is better for our family circumstances and I hope DH and I stretch them at home.

Violence is the issue in Scotland. Children are assaulted and kept on the classroom with the person assaulting them.

I have been critical of the Scottish education system. I have put my two children through it. These are some of my thoughts.
There aren’t many opportunities for more
talented pupils and when kids are perhaps struggling, no one really seems bothered by it. I get the idea of learning at your own pace etc. but there doesn’t seem to be much recognition of what a child’s potential might be and give them a push sometimes. There is always a vagueness about how kids are getting on, to the point that they don’t seem to want parents to know.
Like another has said, the first few years of high school seem like a lost opportunity to challenge the brightest and get everyone up to the required standard. In my experience there was no assessment at this stage with the exception of maths and science. There is no real preparation for the senior phase before it happens.
Having said that, my eldest did exceptionally well at a local state school, was accepted to Oxbridge and is now about to go into his 3rd year. He did 3 advanced highers in 6th year and was in no way disadvantaged when he started his university course. He had done things that A-level pupils hadn’t and vice-versa.
There are things to like about the Scottish system. There are no stresses with SATS and I think the system of sitting exams in a way that suits the needs of the pupil is much better. And if highers don’t go to plan in 5th year, there is a second chance in 6th year. I’m sure both systems have their pros and cons.

Thanks so much everyone for the insightful replies.

Sorry not sure how to reply without quoting.

This is the kind of thing I have heard and am worried about. But I also think their quality of life overall could be better in Scotland. I don't know how this will translate into uni prospects (if they want to go - no way of telling now of course). Private school would not be something we could afford. Do you feel you're having to plug a lot of gaps at home? Is that leading to a lot of additional study out of school time if you don't mind my asking.

We live in the south (nearly) of England and I am very concerned about the impacts of climate change here. We've had trains derailing in the heat twice last week (DH has to currently commute by rail into London), heatwaves with schools closing or closing early, drought, wildfires meaning we've had to seal the house off, nearby houses burning down. It's all very scary and I can't help but think how it'll be in ten twenty years time. I know that Scotland faces its own very real challenges in relation to climate change also and am researching as thoroughly as I can.

I have heard this too and this is very scary. When I've read posts about this parents/schools seem powerless to do anything about which is really scary.

@BossFloss thank you for your reply. That's really useful to know. Do you have any advice for navigating the system to ensure pupils get what they need and meet their potential? Did you have to ask the right questions at school, extra work at home, or did you look for a particularly good state school etc? It sounds very different to the English system.

I am not personally a fan of the stress children are exposed to via sats etc so young but I also would like to feel my child is being appropriately challenged and that their progress is monitored in some way. Thanks again!

My eldest started school in Scotland before transferring to England and my youngest started in England.

A few differences I've noticed:
If your children are summer-born, they'll start school at just turned 4 in England. They'll be 5/almost 5 in Scotland. The youngest they'll be is 4.5 (last day of Feb is the cut off for an August start, rather than last day of August for September start).

The schools that I have experience of in England are constantly having dress down for money days. And they expect the kids to really work. The amount of stressed kids I've seen is unreal. Scotland is less pushy in that regard.

The uniform rules in the English schools that I've got experience of are VERY strict. There are no converse or trainers allowed and EVERYTHING has to be logo'ed - including PE kit. Kids I've seen going back in Scotland don't seem to have the same rules around skirt length and types of shoe, etc. You can be put in isolation or sent home from English schools for wearing the wrong thing.

The Scottish secondary that the family kids have experience of had someone taking a knife in. We've not had that in our local (commutable to London) comprehensive.

Class sizes in England can be full to bursting with little to no TAs. Now, we were in a village in Scotland but the classes were tiny in comparison. That's more teacher time per child.

I dont know if its changed now, but my kids homework is mostly online, and theres a LOT of it - this wasnt the case in Scotland.

A few other points: Depending where you go in Scotland, you will likely have to travel to entertain the kids. You have to travel less of a distance in England, but there is much less traffic in Scotland - you can see the roads clearing as you pass Manchester on the way up.

The two systems are remarkably different. Changing between the two isnt impossible, but it’s no easier than switching between the American curriculum and the English one. They're that different.

In Scotland, the age cut off is end of February. So if you’re 4 by the end of February then you start that August. However, if you’re not going to be 5 by the start of the school year then you have the choice of deferring and starting a year later.

So a child who is 5 in September this year can start school this August or next August. Means you essentially get an 18 month age range in classes.

There’s at least a year less compulsory education. Which you may see as a good or bad thing. Subjects start narrowing down younger. Standard assessments are fewer, so the English approach of having targets based on where child was at earlier in their education doesn’t exist. Which may mean bright children aren’t stretched as much.

Uniform is a much, much less big deal. Again, positive or negative depending on your view.

Composite classes are common even in big schools. Staffing seems to be based on total school roll not numbers in each year group. Very small rural schools still very much exist. Within 15 mins drive of reasonable sized towns. So if that’s of interest it’s more readily available.

Catchment areas are almost the only way school admission works. There are maps, you look up the house on a map and it tells you which school the children that live in that house should go to. You can apply for out of zone but it’s unusual. Again, positive or negative depending on your view.

EHCPs dont exist, and there isn’t a Scottish equivalent. Theyre just not a thing.

It all just seems a bit ‘less’. But less state structured education isnt bad in everyone’s eyes.

There’s a family who have kids in my kids primary and they moved from Scotland as their dear had started school and they weren’t keen but for every one who hates it’s they’ll be people who don’t have an issue I guess. She also said they’d only moved for her husbands job and that it was rough where they were and didn’t want that for her kids so they relocated back.

They are very different, from the very beginning.

We have family in schools in England and I'd say the Scottish schools are about 2 years behind the English schools (less so in private school).

This makes it very difficult for students to move to England for university, for example. Very few do it (partly because there are no fees for Scottish universities, but also because it's hard to meet entry requirements from Scottish schools).

There are strengths and weaknesses in both systems. There were a few children in my children's school that moved up from England. On the whole they seem happy. It also depends on where in Scotland you want to live.
My children all went to small village primary schools. They all had small classes and a lot of attention from the teachers. Things like skiing and forest schools were part of their curriculum. They all achieved above the expected academic standards. I felt that they all left primary school as very well rounded confident children.
Their High School was smaller too. This meant that academic options were more limited. It also meant smaller classes and teachers knew pupils. I still get stopped by my their old teachers in the street and asked how they are all getting on. All 4 of my children went on to university.
I have found that, on talking to visitors this summer (I live in the Highlands), the OP is far from unusual in considering moving further north because of climate change.

One thing I dislike is lack of artistic subjects, they get 1 hour of taught art a week and very little music. No free musical instrument lessons. No drama except if there is a production.

I think the art side of things is very teacher and area dependent. My two (Aberdeenshire) get a lot of Arts and Music. My p7 is on his 3rd year of free violin. They've done concerts, productions and are constantly singing. They have also learnt plenty of French, encouraged to order lunch that way every day and so on.

Small class sizes, no violence and both mine have been pushed. Dc2 is reading 3 years ahead and has been encouraged to do so. Dc1 is ahead in maths and is given more advanced work. They get plenty of homework. We are very happy with the school.

I disagree. It’s not hard at all for high achieving pupils to meet English university standards provided they are at a decent school, whether state or independent.

A decent school is a high school that offers a good choice of Advanced Highers in sixth year and encourages the academically able to take three Advanced Highers. Advanced Highers are worth more UCCAs points than A levels. They are demanding and set at first year English uni standard.

All aspiring doctors vets and lawyers are likely to do three advanced Highers. (It’s also possible to get in to English unis to some courses with a good showing in Highers alone). Poor schools offer very few options and don’t encourage pupils to keep working hard to achieve in sixth year suggesting additional highers instead. That’s a poor move if there is any chance the kid may wish to study at an English uni.

It’s possible to get a good education in Scotland - but you need to choose the school very carefully.

I don’t know of any kids who took advanced Highers and struggled in English unis. DC1 is at a uni in Scotland with a lot of English people, doesn’t feel has been at a disadvantage (STEM degree). My DCs school was until recently classed as disadvantaged but when each of my DCs were in fifth year, some of their class mates were sitting advanced Highers as well as highers. No issues with violence or significant disruption despite being a supposedly “rough” school.

We’ve experienced huge problems with violence towards our children in both primary and secondary. These are in top 10 in Scotland schools. Scotland cannot permanently exclude anyone so the violent child has free rein to do what they like. Police are also toothless when it comes to under 25 year olds. The experience has been terrifying. Two of my children were hospitalised, to have to go into class the next day and sit in a class with their attackers. It’s insane.

Apart from that the other big issue was lack of attendance these days. Attendance isn’t clamped down on like it is in England. So many children trail up the road to school mid morning - and this is from the very youngest age. There are no fines and nothing the school can do. It just adds to the classroom disruption massively.

The narrowing of subjects at such a young age isn’t great and most children are only 16 when they sit their highers, the exams which set the course for uni admissions. Too young imho.

Then you add in the rapidly tumbling PISA standards.

if all else was equal I’d stay in England.

Right, but it’s only the most academically able that do advanced highers, whereas in England, A levels are the norm for everyone.

A levels are much easier. There is more coaching through them, whereas AHs are more independent study. And yet the offers will be almost identical between the AH and the A levels.

But this is the exact issue - Highers are much easier than A levels, and don’t prepare people for English unis. Scottish universities have an extra year to get people up to standard (after they’ve usually wasted sixth year messing about).

AHs are inexplicably harder, and those going to English unis (the most academically able) will find first year comparatively easy.

The systems don’t line up, and the English system is far superior for flexibility.

One of the other issues I have with the Scottish education is that the government is totally unwilling to address the issues. It hasn’t admitted that soaring violence is an issue, or that the CfE has failed. They just have their heads firmly in the sand.

I moved and I was amazed at how different was. My DC was Year 2 when we moved and was way ahead of peers with writing etc. I was shocked that all the primary school kids were given iPads to take home. Not convinced that this engaged their learning or desire to learn.

On people moving from England to Scotland, my sister moved back to Scotland from England when her child finished a levels and apparently her child can get free tuition as they have a Scottish address. I thought you had to have been here for 3 years before tuition was free. Is that right?

Most kids I know did at least one advanced higher, usually 2 or 3. Mine both did 3 as did kost of their friends.The ones targeting English unis tended to do 3 but unless they are looking at Oxbridge or a very specific course (or a limited place course like vet med), most kids I know discount English unis simply because they don’t want to pay the fees,

I think there is a difference in the step up between AH and Higher depending on the type of subject. DC1 felt AH in the STEM subjects they did were just more of the same but AHs for Arts and Social Sciences seemed more like the Sixth Year Studies we had in my day and a move away from the very prescriptive nature of Highers which I think must be a much more challenging jump.

Meanwhile DB tells me his DS still hasn’t opened his A level results.