Possible move to Scotland from England but should we be concerned about education?

[Wouldliketomove]

Hello Everyone,

As the title says, DH and I are carefully researching a possible move to Scotland for our family (two toddlers currently) but I am constantly reading worrying things about education in Scotland. I'm aware there are also soon to be significant changes, which complicates things further and introduces more unknowns.

Can anyone with experience either as teachers or parents offer a perspective on education in Scotland at the moment please or any further insight into what is to come? I have tried to read what is widely available.

Thanks very much in advance

There is little alternative provision in Scotland - not a problem if you don't need it, but a potential problem if you do. The ehc system does not exist in Scotland and one result is that there is little incentive for anyone to set up alternative schools.

Local authorities hold the power - they largely decide where your child goes whereas in England you have choices (at least in theory).

In England they have PRUs at secondary level for highly disruptive children, and of course alternative provision caters for a lot of kids who wouldn't cope with mainstream. In Scotland they try to keep children in school whatever.

I would say, look very carefully at the secondary schools where you are hoping to move to. And be wary if your child has significant additional needs.

Another difference is that children will generally stay at their secondary school with no change to a sixth form college or equivalent. The exception would be people who leave school at 16 and do an apprenticeship or SVQ at college. But all state secondary schools will offer a range of qualifications between 16 and 18 depending on academic ability/vocation. Most children will go to their local secondary (private school excepted) so they will be accompanied by most of their primary class. Means they start with friends - feels a bit easier than the English system where you can have not only friends but siblings at different high schools. Out of area placements are possible but if it’s a popular school you’ll struggle to get a place, with the criteria going something like siblings are there, or child has special needs that can’t be catered for locally, or child has a complicated family situation, or child has been bullied at their catchment school. Only after all kids in those scenarios are sorted will the LA consider anyone with a different reason.

My kids’ high school has a big Student Support team for children with additional needs. Some schools have special units, and in Edinburgh there are a number of special schools for children with high needs. In Aberdeenshire it tends to be special units rather than separate schools. Not sure about the rest of the country.

It’s the lack of much needed PRUs that’s the issue. Incredibly violent individuals just lobbed in a mainstream class, with SLT not given sufficient powers to safeguard the other children. There was a child in my child’s class who picked up regular assault charges from the police for beating up other kids, but these ‘charges’ were just letters home to his mum. There were no actual consequences. This was in one of the naice-est schools in the whole of Scotland. Similar sort of situation to what this poor dad outlines:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxelyzrxr4o

We need someone to start addressing violent children are allowed to run amok in schools and communities because the current situation is not at all viable.

Really?

Please do demonstrate.

There are no ‘Church of Scotland’ schools!! There are non denominational schools and Catholic schools.

A quick google will show you that East Renfrewshire, East Dunbartonshire, schools in certain areas of Glasgow like Bearsden and Milngavie, some Stirling schools , some Edinburgh schools eg Boroughmuir, James Gillespie’s, Royal High, Linlithgow, North Berwick etc do well in league tables. There are many others. That’s high schools of course. You’ll want to see the feeder primaries if your children are younger.

Many - not all - Catholic schools have high standards, possibly because there’s a shared ethos of moral aspiration and achievement amongst parents and school that is often lacking elsewhere in the state sector. Sometimes non Catholic children will be accepted. You can always apply.

To be blunt, look for middle class areas with aspirational parents. Ask about discipline, bullying and scope of higher and advanced higher options. Do remember though that schools change over time. Reassess when you kids are nearing the end of primary.

Apologies - they are Christian (Protestant?), not Catholic. The teacher told me Church of Scotland so I was just quoting. That’s the one my kids are at, then there’s a Catholic one a few blocks away.

If your budget will allow you to buy in the Jordanhill catchment area, you’ll be future proofing for an excellent and gratis school experience and then of course free uni places.

Curious is everyone really thinks free university places will still be here in 15 years? I work at a university and I think the bottom is falling out of that concept fast. Just before the OP changes her whole life on that assumption. Would guess it will still be more affordable than England but either universities will take fewer Scottish students or they’ll have to pay more to attend - it’s not sustainable at all just now.

You may have heard of a thing called ‘Google’, there are 3 Catholic schools in Aberdeen.

St Joseph’s RC
St Peter’s RC
Holy Family

Exactly.

It's very different to when we were in school. The government should be ashamed.

Highers are not “easier” than A-levels. That’s an absolute myth.

The course my daughter has been accepted to, needs BBBC for Highers, in one sitting, that’s in one year. A-level requirements are BCC. That seems equitable to me.

The courses are shorter to allow students to cover a wider number of subjects, they don’t look at topics in any less depth, just with more breadth. They have to squeeze a similar level of depth into a much shorter period of time. They start the higher course in August and have to be finished the main curriculum points by December to meet the grades for prelims in January. This allows for more flexibility in education. My daughter will end up with 8 highers and two advanced highers over two years. Alongside this she has so far done a Nat 4 in various topics such as First Aid, Ecology, Leadership and communication etc. Are you really suggesting this is easier than 3 A levels. If the school thinks any child is wasting their 6th year, they are asked to take it seriously or leave.

If you are going to study particular courses that require a certain level of knowledge in more depth, they will require an Advanced higher, but these are the ones which will ask for similar at A level. The level of basic knowledge for the vast majority university courses is exactly the same.

University courses are longer in Scotland because we favour breadth over depth. The first year is foundational and is shared with other common core subjects. At the end of year one, and in some cases year two, you can switch to any of the courses within that common core. Along side the courses, there are optional side courses you can do, some are course related some are not. Because of this, timetabling is also less full on than in English universities. Looking at my daughter’s course, in England she would have 18 hours of scheduled teaching time over 4 days. In Scotland she will have 10 hours over 3.5 days. Wednesday afternoons at a great many Scottish universities are set aside for sports, and hers follows this, and one day is set aside for optional courses. She will end up with a qualification in BSL as that’s one of the options she wants to do.

The Scottish And English systems are different in how they work, but they are comparable in terms of how “easy” the work is.

Having worked in unis too I agree that I cannot see the ‘free’ tuition fees lasting for much longer. It costs nearly £1bn a year and the Scottish government is going to have to cut its spend by £5bn in the coming year. My nephew has just started 6th year and thinking of taking a year out but I think it’s unwise. Get in there quick while it’s free. I think if you apply while it’s free they cannot retrospectively decide that you’re going start paying tuition fees I’d have thought.

We aren’t rural. Were slap bang in the middle of the two major cities in the central belt. With the exception of German, none of these subjects are available at my daughter’s school. They are available on consortia but annoyingly because we aren’t rural they tend to do fewer of them online meaning kids have to travel to different schools which is a pain in the arse!

Exactly

Highers are a one year course and A levels are 2.

I don’t think Unis use UCAS points so much any more but 5 As at Higher is broadly equivalent in UCAS points for those that do to 3 A* at A level

Or, we could increase the number of enhanced provision units so that children with additional needs are given the help and support they need at a much earlier age rather than letting them get to the stage they are excluded.

And, it’s not even a year! A couple of weeks in June when exams are all over, then mid August to December, prelims in January/ February, March for revision, Easter holidays then exams.

These are primary schools. There are no Catholic high schools in Aberdeen city or shire. In fact, the furthest north you can find a Catholic high school is Dundee.

Someone referred to other schools as “non-denominational” whilst this is largely the case the further north you go (albeit you might have an assembly with a minister once a year) On moving to the central belt, I was amazed at just how much religion was brought in to primary schools. We have a local “community church” which changed its name from Evangelical church. The pastor has pretty much unfettered access to the local primary school, running lunch time “craft club” (come and colour in pictures of Jesus whilst we tell you about Jesus) “Lego club” (come and make Lego models of Jesus whilst we tell you about Jesus)
”cooking club” (bring 5 loaves, 2 fishes and a jug of water)** Even the 3 day residential trip is at their church run outdoor centre, where they had to say prayers before meals and bed. Thing is, I had absolutely no idea this was the case. This is not information that is on the school prospectus, nor detailed in any communication from the school. It was only when my daughter kept talking about “Mr S came in to read stories to us today” and after about couple of years, I thought to ask her who he was.

All Scottish schools have their roots in the church. In the central belt of Scotland, some schools find it harder to let go of that than others.

** This may be embellished for effect…

You might need to refine your google and / or geography skills.

They’re all primary schools, no secondary provision. They’re also all in Aberdeen city. Which is different to Aberdeenshire.

So, pupils in Aberdeen city and shire don’t all have a choice of two schools. Same in plenty of other council areas. There’s a Scotland outside of the central belt.

Well that depends doesn’t it? As long as my child doesn’t have to spend any time whatsoever in fear of harm at school, I’d be okay with that, but schools seem to have a terribly lax idea of safeguarding which if we as parents had we’d be reported to social services. ‘I know wee Calum chucked a table at you and punched the teacher, but isn’t it brilliant how much resilience you’ve built as a result!’

So many disgusting, mealy-‘mouthed excuses in place of a genuine motivation to protect our children.

And yeh some lucky kids can waltz through Scottish schooling without being victim to violence, but violence is soaring in all catchments at all levels, and once your child doesn’t become a victim it is STAGGERING how little anyone in power gives a shit here.

Every state school in Scotland has at least one careers adviser (employed by Skills Development Scotland). There are also post-school advisers in the community to support anyone who needs it.

There are 3 catholic primary schools in Aberdeen City which I believe are also open to children in Aberdeenshire - although the travel would be a consideration. It is correct there are no catholic secondaries in either Aberdeen City or Aberdeenshire but there is provision for catholic education in secondary school - there certainly was a peripatetic teacher for the catholic pupils in the secondary school I worked in.

At which point did I, or in your passive aggressive post, did anyone state that we were only talking about high schools?

I only mentioned that the majority of pupils in the country have access to 2 catchment schools, then for some reason, known only to yourself, you felt the need to point out that some minor city and rural area don’t, which has also turned out to be incorrect incidentally.

Roughly 13% of Scotland’s Population live north of Dundee.

Less than 4% live in Aberdeenshire.

Given most of it is rural it is safe to assume that the chances of the OP moving there are relatively low, most new arrivals tend to stay within travelling distance to the major cities/employment centres.

Both major industries in Aberdeen are dead, there has been an exodus out of the area, reflected in the massive drop in value of property, think it’s unlikely the OP would choose to go to such a place but each to their own.

Your attempt to re-frame your statement as only discussing high schools is back-pedalling to extreme levels.

As for your ‘outside the central belt’ comment, this is exactly why I said the majority of pupils and not all, there was no blanket comment.

We had children in both English and Scottish education systems. Our experience was that at the beginning of secondary the Scottish children were probably a couple of years behind. The first 3 years of secondary were extremely relaxed, as there were no exams so the teachers didn't feel the need to do much. There was almost no homework. I felt that the children were infantilised. Then the exam curriculum kicked in. Work increased but it was boring and focused on writing down exactly the "right" answers in exactly the right way to get exam points. I don't feel that the children actually learnt very much or were enthused by their subjects and they didn't seem to develop essay-writing or critical thinking skills.

It was VERY easy to get time off school. They said that they cared about uniforms being smart, but they didn't really. That was one aspect I liked. There was some very bad teaching, the teacher not showing up, etc, though I think that most of the teachers were okay, but were working in a bad system. The teachers were protected by the school in terms of working time and parental contact - so for example parents couldn't email a teacher direct.

It was possible to do Highers in arty subjects, but that would have left DC with very little in the way of more academic subjects. So a child may be doing 11 or 12 Gcses, but in Scotland they only do 5 Highers. This meant that DC, who wanted to get into a good uni, wasn't in practice able to do music or art or drama. It also means that there is pressure to drop either science subjects or arts and humanities subjects very early. So children leave school knowing very very little about science, for example, and they have to make that choice without really having a good idea of what they're interested in or where their strengths lie or how the choice may affect their future.

There were a couple of major mess-ups by the school - as a parent you have to be very alert as to what is going on. I remember one parent complaining that she was assured that her child was doing as expected, and it was only when it was too late that she realised that from the school's point of view "as expected" meant that the child was failing academically and would not be allowed to sit Highers.

The education system is strongly affected by the ideologies of the Scottish government. Our headmaster didn't believe in any setting - so all children were taught together in every subject. Your child could be very talented at maths, and they'd be in the same lesson as children who really struggled with maths. That really affects how they are taught and how much they learn. The ethos was all around helping the low achievers to achieve the basics. There seemed to be little interest in stretching the high achievers. The idea is that everyone should come out at the same, low level. That's demoralising for brighter children. It's also why education is constantly being dumbed down - so that everyone can be seen to be achieving at the same level. Not that that's working. The children are told that what they're doing is really difficult and they're working very hard. Well, the fact is that children in other educational systems are working harder with higher expectations on them and are achieving more.

I wouldn't believe what some people are saying about Highers being the same level as A'levels. That was absolutely not our experience. It varies from subject to subject. In some subjects, Highers are easier than Gcses. Advanced Highers are more challenging, but there isn't much teacher input. Far less time is spent in class than for A'level students. And children leave school after only 1 year of 6th form. I felt that they were very short-changed in comparison with English children and start university at a disadvantage (even if they've taken Advanced Highers, which the majority of children don't).

So I prefer the English system. However, if your children are not academic there may be some advantages to the Scottish system.

The violence in Scottish schools and the fact that schools are powerless to do anything about it is a scandal. Presumably teachers stay in the profession because they are, for Scotland, very well paid.