Possible move to Scotland from England but should we be concerned about education?

[Wouldliketomove]

Hello Everyone,

As the title says, DH and I are carefully researching a possible move to Scotland for our family (two toddlers currently) but I am constantly reading worrying things about education in Scotland. I'm aware there are also soon to be significant changes, which complicates things further and introduces more unknowns.

Can anyone with experience either as teachers or parents offer a perspective on education in Scotland at the moment please or any further insight into what is to come? I have tried to read what is widely available.

Thanks very much in advance

But that is just not true. The qualifications are assessed and mapped against each other resulting in an official position for comparison. Are all the organisations and specialists involved completely wrong?

So my DC did Higher English. That's the highest qualification most children do in Scottish schools, and qualifies you to go straight to university to study English literature. In Higher English, DC studied one modern short story and the first 3 minutes of a film.

I've had a look online at what Italian children do in their Italian literature lessons in their final year of secondary school. So that would be the year before moving on potentially to study Italian literature at university. I've put it through a translator and here it is -

"Below are the main topics that usually make up the syllabus for the fifth year of upper secondary school

ITALIAN LITERATURE, YEAR 5: the syllabus
Giacomo Leopardi
Italian literature in the post-unification era
The novel: from French Naturalism to Italian Verismo
Giosue Carducci
Giovanni Verga
Italian literature in the Decadent era
The Italian Decadent Novel
Gabriele d’Annunzio
Giovanni Pascoli
Italian Literature of the Early Twentieth Century
The Avant-garde Period
Italian Poetry of the Early Twentieth Century
Italo Svevo
Luigi Pirandello
Italian Literature between the Two World Wars
Italian Society: Between Backwardness and Modernity
The Absurd, the Unreal, the Fantastic
Hermeticism
Umberto Saba
Giuseppe Ungaretti
Eugenio Montale
Italian literature from the post-war period to the present day
Rural life
The Italian bourgeois novel
The myth of the people
War, deportation and the Resistance
Industry and literature
The novel and history
From ‘social commitment’ to postmodernism
Italian poetry beyond Hermeticism
Italian poetry from the 1970s to the present day
Youthful restlessness
20th-century Italian drama
Cesare Pavese
Carlo Emilio Gadda
Pier Paolo Pasolini
Italo Calvino
THE DIVINE COMEDY
Paradise

Here's the original -
LETTERATURA ITALIANA QUINTO - lezioniignoranti

Wake up. Scottish children are miles behind. Lots of people have come onto these various education threads and told us how they moved their children from England (or in fact multiple other countries) to Scotland and found that their children were literally years ahead. Are they all lying? And what about the people who've told us that they moved their children from Scotland to England and they were very behind and really struggled? Are they lying too? We've heard from a few teachers, too, who've worked with both Scottish and English children and found a huge difference between their levels and, in some cases, their attitude to learning.
English schools are really serious about learning these days. They push children to work hard and they give more academic children higher level work. Attendance is taken very seriously. In Scotland, the opposite happens. Primary school is largely about playing and not pushing yourself. Secondary school is largely about not pushing yourself (just one sign of that is how few bother with Advanced Highers, another is the lack of concern over school attendance), and not bothering with more academic children once they've achieved the basics. At both primary and secondary, children are told that what they're doing is really hard. But just have a look at what everywhere else in the world expects their children to do.
We are really failing our children, and that makes me angry. How can Scotland thrive in the modern world when it's not educating its young people?

And that’s all your child did? For a whole year? My kids read a great deal more than that. Tbf, the higher course is not English literature, it’s English.

So what did your children do? Was this recently? And how does it compare with what Italian children do? I've only compared the literature aspect with Italy - obviously they do Italian language too.

They read a lot more than that! One was pretty recent. Presenting your anecdote about how little your child read doesn’t read as compelling evidence.

Not only do they not have to read much for H English, but my daughter's English teacher told me that poor spelling and grammar are not taken into account when marking exam papers either 😥. Such low standards expected of our children.

Goodness there's a lot I'm unhappy with about Scottish education but this Secondary school is largely about not pushing yourself (just one sign of that is how few bother with Advanced Highers, another is the lack of concern over school attendance), and not bothering with more academic children once they've achieved the basics is just baloney.

Oh really? Despite all the people coming onto these threads complaining about the lack of interest in academic/bright children, who are absolutely not pushed or enabled to reach their potential? Just a few posts up someone has complained that her son didn't feel challenged at any point at school in Scotland. He first experienced the feeling of being challenged in the 2nd year of university.
And it's absolutely true that Scottish schools are extremely relaxed about attendance (whereas in England they're extremely strict and parents are fined), and that since Covid many children are missing a lot of school. And what percentage of children do 3 Advanced Highers in S6? Compare that with how many do 3 A'levels in England, where that's seen as standard, and some do 4 A'levels, with a small number going beyond that.

my DD is in S6 doing 3 AH she will be 17.25 when she takes her exams, she did 7 x Nat 5 when 15 send of S4, 5 x highers in S5 at age 16 she is one of youngest in year and will not be 18 when goes to uni next year

I agree that nat 5 seem a bit formulaic especially in biology when having right wording is essential in short answer papers

to get to most uni;s they want higher English even for engineering / science degrees and lots of arts subjects want higher maths , so dropping English or maths in S5 is not advisable

when applying to uni it's UCAS points and what uni wants in terms of gradesm many courses are looking for 5 highers in one sitting at AAAAA or at least AAABB, if you don't have this then your place may depend on AH results.

I think it is a shame more students especially those with an A at higher are not encouraged to do AH

doing 3 AH together ( actually 4 as doing the mechanics of Maths) but that is an extra 2 hours a week and only available if doing AH in maths and physics. With wider achievement and health and well being etc, my DD has 8 free periods a week to study

Again, AHs are not the same level as A levels. England does not hold the gold standard for education.

Glasgow and Edinburgh univeristy to study medicine requires AAAAB at higher and BB at advanced higher must have higher BIology,Chemistry and physics or Maths all in one sitting

Alevel requirements AAA Chemistry and 1 of Biology physics or maths

also require B or a 7 grades in English at GSCE / nat 5

so it would seems they equate AAAAB higher and 2 AH as the same as 3 A levels

There is/was a big push at my DCs school to do AHs. Either 3 or 2 and 2 Highers. My DCs do seem to have had a much better experience than many on this thread, perhaps that’s why. DC1’s friend has just started final year at an Oxbridge college and is on course for a First. DC is at a good uni which is popular with English students, doing STEM and has never felt behind. Relatives DCs in England have had mental health issues, years out after school and Bs and Cs at A Level even when achieving 8s and 9s at GCSE plus taking time out afterwards to help feel well again. Mine had part time jobs, volunteering - 6th year was a time for 3AH plus personal development and getting the bank balance as healthy as possible before university. Their school environment was very positive and supportive though and I’ve heard very different things about some of the local schools which are considered to be the “academic” schools in the area which I find strange.

The English teacher has the option of choosing a book rather than a section of a film, which is what my DC's teacher chose. Apparently the teacher made it clear that she didn't expect the children (who'd chosen to do English Higher) to be able to read a complete book.
Your statement that you're sure your children read more for English Higher but you can't remember what isn't exactly compelling evidence, is it?

Once again, do you feel that your DCs learned as much about British or English language literature in their Higher English course as Italian children learn about Italian literature in their last year at school? Have you read that list of what Italian children do? Does that make you think that Scottish children might actually be capable of doing more than they're doing at the moment?

Students will decide what to do in S6 based on what their next step is. If university, they will look at what they need to achieve - AH might help them; or they might not.
Budget restrictions affect the offering of AHs. Classes are smaller and there is not necessarily the staff to teach them, or to teach them for more than a period or two a week. It's not perfect. But to say staff aren't bothered with academic children is disrespectful to the amount of effort we put in.

No, AHs are lower level than A'levels (see the discussion on that upthread). My point is that when offered the chance to do a higher level qualification than Highers, to maybe stretch themselves a bit, enjoy a bit of a challenge, the majority decline the invitation and enjoy a relaxing year picking up a couple of extra Nat 5s or Highers, safe in the knowledge that they have an unconditional offer already in the bag. And many schools are happy with that. As I've said, why push yourself / your pupils when you don't have to?
I appreciate that there are issues with some subjects not being offered as AHs, which forms part of this as well.

I didn’t say I couldn’t remember. I honestly don’t know why you are persisting with this.

This absence of AH is absolutely not the case where I am. I don’t think I know of anyone at any school who stayed on until S6 and didn’t do any AH, unless there were issues from previous years that needed to be addressed. I think it was more common when I was at school not to focus on AH (I didn’t and my university professor DB only did 2) but IME it’s more unusual not to do AH now.

How many AH?

Just had a wee look at Italy’s latest Pisa rankings
inspired by this thread and PP is right, Scottish students probably could handle literature at least as challenging as Italian students as the Scottish reading ranking was 488 vs Italy’s 474.

If you can remember, perhaps you could let us know what your DCs read for their Higher English. That would obviously help people to determine whether children read a lot or a little at Higher level, which is what we're discussing. The more recent the better, as the curriculum keeps on getting dumbed down.

Did they read as much as Italian children read? Do you think that Scottish children are capable of learning at that level? If not, then why not? Or maybe you think that learning about your country's literature in that kind of breadth and depth is a waste of time for our young people. What should they be doing with their time instead? And is that what they're actually doing?

Most kids do 3 or 3 and 2 Highers (DCs bf is a bit of a lazy arse so has taken this option). The kids I know who go to the school with the most academic reputation in my area and who want to do medicine seem to be encouraged to do 2AH -
they seem to view this as the safest strategy once the higher results are in but will only work if the target is a Scottish uni. At my DCs supposedly less academic school (it’s not a Mumsnet favourite), everyone targeting medicine (or dentistry) always does 3 AH.

DC1 did Romeo & Juliet for Higher.

My friend was quoting Catullus to me this weekend, from her SYS Latin. I could have done without that 😁

If Italian children are genuinely illiterate, that curriculum must certainly be a challenge for them, and I'm surprised they're trying to teach it.
The one Italian teenager I used to know well told me incredible things about what she did at school. She learned Latin and Greek, plus English and French, both at a very high level. And that's just the languages. She'd read Shakespeare, Austen and Donne in English.