WT Actual F has happened to Scottish education under the SNP???

[YellowPixie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2vk9gm4e0o

Analysis has been done into the pass rates of SQA exams, looking at the total cohort of S4 pupils and Nat 5s, rather than just the ones entered in the exams.

Only 40% of S4 kids passed Nat 5 maths. 25% have a pass in biology which they say is the most popular science. What a fucking shambles - no wonder they want to scrap Nat 5s, they can then pretend that everyone's a winner and give all S4s an "achievement certificate" irrespective of whether or not they would know a fraction if it came up and slapped them.

I think the word I should have used was ‘devolved”. Yes education, and law, have been different in scotland since way before devolution- but since devolution, the Scottish government does have an education department / body and minister. Who should be running education. If they’re not, who is and why? The SQA describes itself as a body of the Scottish government.

@SkiingonKaraSea I think you're underestimating the power of the teaching profession who've been incredibly resistant to pressure from the government in real terms. CfE was launched under Labour in response to the concerns of teachers, but change was absolutely glacial. There have been various political directions along the way down to the programme for government, however these haven't made huge strides, except perhaps in creating a vacuous leadership culture. If the SNP government had really demanded change we'd have no Highers and a Scottish Baccalaureate. These things were not done because teachers dragged their feet and are now at the stage of gaming a broken system, despite numerous attempts by government to get improvements- see RICs, Ken Muir report. Local Authorities playing politics and focusing on league tables are a huge part of this.

Where were you? I’d love my adult DCs to move here but I would want the DGCs to go private which means Edinburgh or GlSgow

My oral test was being shown a picture of the beach with no prior warning and talking about it. Hers was pre learnt.

I'm sure I've talked about this before but I did 2 modern languages at school right up to CSYS level in 6th year. For O Grade (and possibly Higher too) we were given a story board sheet, 6 or 8 little pictures telling a simple story. For one exam I remember it was about a family preparing to go on holiday, packing suitcases, getting in the taxi, going to the airport when Dad suddenly realises he's left the passports at home, rushes back, final picture was them all getting on the plane. You had about 10 minutes to look at the pictures, work out what was going on, write down your key words for each picture then the teacher started the tapes and you all spoke into the machine. It was not easy and you had to have a good command of all the tenses and vocabulary to tell a story.

But then, in our school at least, everyone did at least one modern language to the end of S4 and my kids school now doesn't even require a modern language in S3. I understand why teachers are teaching to the test and aiming for high grades though, in my kids school there are plenty of sharp elbowed parents who would totally be into school demanding to know why little Jimmy hadn't got straight As in their Nat 5s.

Clear that something really needs to change. When my kids were small and CfE was being brought in there was a lot around children exploring their own interests and directing the laerning and at primary level this is great. At secondary level though it's totally the other way - learn the way to express yourself to tick the SQA boxes, doesn't matter if you understand the material or not.

@SkiingonKaraSea
The relevance is that those passing a standard grade at general level (which everyone sat) were awarded a pass in Maths Standard Grade. A '3' was widely viewed as equivalent to a C pass in the previous O Grade system. A '4' was also a 'pass' at Standard Grade general. The reality is that it was more in line with today's National 4 level.
The point people are trying to make is that National 5 Maths level is above this, so similar to achieving a credit 1 or 2 level pass at Standard Grade. The point being that performance levels amongst the S4 cohort in maths probably hasn't shifted that much over time. The exam system and grading structure has though. I'd wager a bet from my memory of the cohort I was in that a similar % achieved a credit standard grade pass as those who currently pass National 5. That's the whole point I'm trying to make but you're getting lost in the media headlines. It's like comparing apples and orange to compare Standard Grade general level to current National 5.

@WhatterySquash the Scottish education system ( eg Directors of Education) is answerable to Scottish Ministers. Before devolution it was answerable to the Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers are currently answerable to the SoS.

My point is that it's a separate system and can't be compared to England as there isn't the same level of central control. There are 32 Directors of Education. Head teachers are answerable to them directly. Beneath that are Deputes, teachers etc and most council officers and support staff, educational psychologists are all considered as teachers. Education Scotland and the SQA are all - teachers. It's a very direct and quite small system and even the lowliest teacher has a lot of power- look at recent industrial action.
There's not the same amount of non teaching, political meddling that goes on in the DoE. Quite simply because teachers will not allow it.

England has much LESS central control compared to Scotland. Even councils have no control over academies there.

The failure of education in Scotland is down to the SNP.

a lot of what PPs are complaining about with regards answering to the spec in exams, rote learning passages for modern languages etc. happens in other systems and exam boards too. So much of GCSEs and A levels is about answering in the way the examiner wants you to answer.

I did A levels and GCSEs, as have many of my nieces and nephews. There is no comparison to the level of prescription required in Nat 5 and Higher answers.

The SQA trying to market itself as some sort of independent body is an absolute joke though - they are part and parcel of the government, overseen by the government. Hence John Swinney getting pelters over the shitshow in 2020 with their predicted grades rather than the Chief Exec of the SQA. And quite rightly too.

@SkiingonKaraSea England has complete central control over minutiae of the curriculum, attendance micromanagement including mandated fines,
OFSTED etc., SATS. Even the EYFS uses a lot of very directive language eg children will..
That kind of control is left to schools and local authorities in Scotland and mainly relies on very vague directives.

You mean the SNP government have delegated functions, overseen their failure and failed to respond to it?

That makes it sound like previous Scottish governments had that level of control - they didn't and nor imo should they.

@YellowPixie "the government" in this case is the Civil Service. John Swinney took pelters because individual civil servants don't deserve to be singled out for punishment and that was his job. The education minister has to trust that civil servants know what they are doing- whoever they are. Even if we had a Reform majority in the Scottish Parliament I doubt education would change much - it's completely entrenched in the profession. There has been no significant progress in children's experience of education since the belt was abolished in the 1980s -except in the numbers of students who attend further and higher education. Experienced teachers have been calling for more time, less pressure and fewer exams for all that time, to no avail, because the majority just continue with what they know.

@SkiingonKaraSea @MistressIggi Scottish education is pretty proud of being independent of government. It's never had that level of central control.

Aberdeen - city & shire

Try comparing with NI - the idea that teachers in Scotland have a lot of power is simply laughable. They are all answerable to their council, who are answerable to the Scottish executive. Head Teachers have no control over their schools - they cannot choose to do things a different way, for instance, or offer a wider range of subjects etc because everything is controlled from above. Principals in NI have far greater control, as do teachers, who can choose different curriculum choices/syllabi to follow, and can shape their schools in the way which suits their cohort/ethos. There are no mandated fines/attendance figures in the same way as in England either. One of the things we hated in Scotland was how little autonomy teachers, and in particular Head teachers, had

"the government" in this case is the Civil Service

The civil service work under the direction of government.

DD is in S6 and eager to leave school. The school's performance has been abysmal, as have the SQA and the SNP government.
Those who have read my previous posts will understand my fury regarding the Higher History scenario, the altered appeals process, and the substandard 'education' offered during lockdown.
I had to engage private tutors for DD during National 5 and Higher levels due to the inadequate education provided by the school. These tutors revealed that entire units were being omitted by DD's teachers, highlighting the necessity of supplemental tuition to address these gaps. This is truly shocking.
While other schools offer free periods to S6 pupils, particularly those pursuing Advanced Highers, DD's school insists on filling these periods with volunteering opportunities and participation in school committees. DD, understandably, desires to utilise this additional time for focused study. The school persistently pressures her to fill her schedule, and I have had to address this matter with the year head, as previously mentioned by another parent. Her weekly morning volunteering at a primary school is, in my opinion, sufficient, but the school demands further volunteering committments.
She declined a school trip due to its excessive cost, yet students from lower-income families are still permitted to attend, with the expectation that we will fundraise to cover their expenses. While I support equality, I am not willing to financially support others.
DD aspires to become a teacher – a profession I actively discourage her from pursuing. Despite being bitten, hit by books, having her hair pulled, and even urinated on by a child during her volunteering, she still naively believes she could secure a position at a 'good school' or that the situation will improve by the time she graduates. I am encouraging her to consider a joint honours degree at Strathclyde University (if she gains admission) as a viable alternative career path.

I smell...sh*te!

Some kids can't sit Nat5 maths in S4. Many sit NAT3/Nat4 instead in S4....

It’s a scandal. To deprive children the right to a well rounded education that will set them up (and Scotland as a whole as a result ) for life is a travesty that will have such a negative legacy for generations to come.

👋

My nephew falls into that category. He is at Edinburgh University and has mainly straight As at Higher across the board.

One of my DC has a place at his chosen university too through a similar widening access scheme. He also has good Higher passes.

We moved from a highly-regarded primary in Edinburgh to England when my children were p6 and p3. The amount they have had to catch up has been shocking to me. Really shocking. I didn’t know it was that bad.

my eldest is starting gcse work now and the exam answer format is much less prescribed than people are describing above.

@TamiTaylorIsMyParentingGuru head teachers have a lot of power in Scotland. They don't choose to use it because they are increasingly on a career pathway out of teaching and are actively encouraged to do so, because if you can talk enough jargon to be a head at 30 you'll need something else to do when you get to 35!

That is the point that is being made - only 40% reach a standard where they can pass Nat 5 which is shockingly low. What is happening in the preceding ten years that mean so few reach that standard by S4?