XL bully dogs and Scotland

[CoatOfArms]

Another blinder by our "wonderful" government. I was not aware that the ban on these awful chav beast dogs only applied in England and Wales. No legislation to ban/restrict them in Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67787667

Some dim woman who runs a "bullie rescue" says she has been "inundated". Isn't that just marvellous.

You don't understand that a dog can be triggered by pain, shock, fear etc to bite or attack? That's really worrying.

Well the way people are making these dogs out to be then nothing should cause them fear, shock or pain. They are just dogs like any other dog. I have no problem with the "rules" just the blanket ban because it will make them more desirable and more badly bred genetics will be pumped out onto the streets because the good breeders will follow the rules and not breed them. So that only leaves bad breeders who are inbreeding and not genetically testing their dogs first they just want the money. The rules should apply to ALL DOGS no matter the size of them. They should all be on leads and muzzled and tadah! No random attacks on the streets but the government are too scared to upset the higher class with their fancy little dogs that btw are just another mongrel (cockapoo -mongrel) (labradoodle - mongrel) 90% of dogs on the streets these days are mongrels that just cost a ridiculous amount of money. Then you have the likes of the Labrador which is Britain's most sought after family dogs, also the dog with the highest bite rate but nothing is done about them. And no I'm not just picking on the Labrador, I actually have one and he's a much bigger risk in every aspect than my bully is.

I’m concerned about how ineffective this law could be. We have incredibly stringent gun laws in this country that most sensible firearms holders abide by, but generally the people using firearms for bad do not have any of the correct licences and I assume it will be the same with these dogs.

Lots of presumably decent owners caught in the crossfire of this legislation who have had to pay for neutering, insurances, muzzling etc and it is a huge shift in dog owning life in 2023 - I have working retrievers and cockers and I’m sure as shit that muzzling them would have a detrimental impact on day to day life and a land transitional period before they would even lead with a muzzle on.

BUT, these XL bullies appeal to bad bastards and bad bastards quite often do not adhere to the law, so there is likely to still be issues going forward unfortunately.

We passed one walking just before Christmas and the owner was barely in control of it, it was on its hind legs with a single leather strap over its muzzle and it was terrifying. Our conversation (like other posters) was what we would have done if it had got free. It reacted badly to our two on lead dogs but if we were the subject? It was as tall as him on hind legs, the only way to have overpowered it would have been with a knife or other weapon. It’s safe to assume most people don’t take a penknife on their dog walk.

No labrador or doodle cross-breed has ever killed a human in the UK. Compare that to the amount of deaths from bull breeds:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

I do agree that dog breeding should be far more strictly regulated. But bugger all is regulated or enforced in the UK any more.

@Irvine21 labradors are less likely to fatally wound someone than a bull breed. If you can’t comprehend that, there really isn’t any point in anyone engaging in debate with you.

@eatsleepfarmrepeat I'd go so far as to say vanishingly unlikely. The British stats go back to 1737 and labradors have managed to kill no-one since then, and in the interim literally millions must have come and gone. Tens of millions even.

I'm not sure whether you're being deliberately obtuse, wilfully ignorant or just extremely naive. If you, as an owner of a large breed, honestly can't see the potential for danger with a dog of that size reacting to sudden fear, pain or shock then that's extremely concerning.

My point is not all the dogs that come under this ban can either, my Labrador is twice the weight of my bully I can pick my bully up, i can't pick my Labrador up! This ban isn't as simple as all these big fighting dogs with massive muscles and cropped ears that people think of when they hear the words XL bully. My bully has boxer in him so he's tall enough to meet the vague description of an XL bully and he has the big daft head etc but if you seen him I guarantee he's not what you think of when you think big dangerous dog that you couldn't over power . He is just over the 20 inch height the slightest bit so unfortunately he will suffer. It's not totally black and white I understand people are scared with what they have seen in the media but this ban and the description of what an XL bully is will ruin so many people's lives. I photograph newborn babies for a living and many of my clients have met my dog at work they have all been shocked that he comes under this ban and that our future of moving to Canada is up in the air because we would not be able to return with out dog. Is that a fair consequence when I didnt actually buy an XL bully? I bought a staffy crossed with a boxer and none of his siblings meet the height description so they won't have to be banned! So if he's dangerous why aren't they? They all have the same genes

Because dogs have different characteristics, different gene pools, different temperaments etc etc etc. How do you not know this?

That's only in the UK. There have been plenty of deaths caused by labradors in other parts of the world unfortunately. As people have said thurther up the list the Scottish bullies aren't and less dangerous than English, the same goes for UK Labrador not being less dangerous than an American one. Just America is larger so more dogs = more risk of bites or fatalities. England had more XL bullies so more risk of bites and fatalities than Scotland obviously that doesn't count now that the unwanted ones have all been taken to Scotland. My point is that deaths can happen with all dogs none of them dont pose a risk to humans especially babies. I would never leave any dog alone with a child and I would never not have my dog properly trained to suit their breed . I literally hate walking the streets and being approaches by an off lead dog there is nothing more disrespectful than letting your dog off lead without perfect recall because you dont know if the person they approach is terrified or dogs of any size it doesn't matter if they are friendly in your eyes.

@Irvine21

Do you tell clients there will be a dog present before you confirm their booking?

Of course I do , incase of any allergies or fears etc. Most of my clients bring their dogs along to their photo sessions too. Nobody has ever had an issue with my dog fortunately, the only time I have not taken him with me was because the clients were bringing their dog which was dog reactive so I didn't want my boy being bitten . Mostly you wouldn't even know he is there, he's been used to people and dogs all ages and sizes since he was vaccinated as a puppy and allowed to go out . It really does pay to properly socialise your dog my boy doesn't react to anything because he is so used to dogs barking , babies crying people constantly being around so nothing shocks him. He just lies in his bed behind my desk unless someone asks him to come over for some fuss he's such a good little soul

There have been plenty of deaths caused by labradors in other parts of the world unfortunately

Could you provide stats for this please?

There have been plenty of deaths caused by labradors in other parts of the world unfortunately

I've looked at the US stats. There are in total three labrador-mixes.
One attack was in conjuction with two pitbulls and there were no witnesses to the actual attack, all three dogs were destroyed as a precaution.
One was a mix that might have been part retriever but uncertain.
The third attack was two lab mixes.

There are 159 menioned instances of a bull breed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

@Irvine21

There have been plenty of deaths caused by labradors in other parts of the world unfortunately.

Plenty? Really?

Between 2005 and 2017, Pit Bulls were responsible for 284 deaths in the US. That's 65.6% of the deaths. Labradors were responsible for 9 deaths in the same time period.

Pit bulls make up 5-6% of the US dog population. Labradors on the other hand are the second most commonly owned dog breed in the US and for the previous 25+ years were the number one most commonly owned dog breed in the US.

Surely you can see that when it comes to sensible risk assessment of the two breeds, the statistics show that they are not comparable?

100% these people will not follow the law it will just make the dogs more desirable!...lots of people shouting for a ban and they don't seem to realise that the Pitbull was banned in the 90s and being a part of a lot of dog groups I can tell you there are more pitbulls in the UK now than when they banned them . Bsl is a pointless lazy way out. The government need to get off their bums and make proper laws and regulations to stop these people from ending up with dogs that shouldn't be trusted with a hamster! And stop the bad breeding I'm currently watching a guy online who's bred his XL saying it's not an XL and the puppies can barely walk at 8 weeks old they have been so badly bred . Those pups should be full of mischief not dragging their back legs along the floor. No vet checks will be done on the XL pups being bred now either because it's illegal so god knows what kind of dogs will be hitting the streets since the ban

There are a lot more countries than the us...my neighbour had part of her face ripped off by a Labrador and was terrified of our lab to begin with . Fortunately she's fine with our lab now because she's always gone out of her way since he was a pup to get to know him so now he's massive and he loves the neighbour. My point is all breeds should be targeted! There should not be being any attacks if people brought their dogs up properly and for those who do struggle with their reactive dogs they should be muzzling them etc without there having to be a ban. The bans alot of nonsense anyone can get the exemption it doesn't matter if your dog is dangerously out of control so we will still see the same attacks happening in people's homes where the dog won't be muzzled and on a lead.

There are a lot more countries than the us...my neighbour had part of her face ripped off by a Labrador and was terrified of our lab to begin with

If the stats are consistent across the UK and US they are highly unlikely to differ much with other countries. Why would they? These two countries are a pretty good sample to extrapolate from.
You've mentioned one anecdote but as the saying does, anecdotes are not data. Of course there will be individual bites from labs but statistically they represent barely any threat of causing fatalities.

I've similarly looked at Canada now. Same story - two attacks where lab crosses were involved (crossed with what?) and then it's bull breed after bull breed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_Canada

Sorry but saying the stats in the UK and US are somehow not reflective of the world as a whole is either a cop out or shows that you don't understand the statistics.

The US has the largest Labrador population. The most data about the breed is therefore available from that country.

Between 2005 and 2017, Pit Bulls were responsible for 284 deaths in the US. That's 65.6% of the deaths. Labradors were responsible for 9 deaths in the same time period.

Pit bulls make up 5-6% of the US dog population. Labradors on the other hand are the second most commonly owned dog breed in the US and for the previous 25+ years were the number one most commonly owned dog breed in the US.

Even if you didn't realise this before, if you look at these statistics surely you can see that when it comes to sensible risk assessment of the two breeds, the statistics show that deaths caused by pit bulls and labradors are not comparable?

Actually the french bulldog is the most commonly owned dog in the us

Yes, which is why I said:

Labradors on the other hand are the second most commonly owned dog breed in the US and for the previous 25+ years were the number one most commonly owned dog breed in the US.

Did you have any thoughts on the rest of my post?

The government have done the same as you and used Google statistics. What about all the dogs all over the world that are not registered? There is an incredible amount of XL bullies in the UK that are not abkc registered so when you count those the bite statistics are nothing. Also when researching online what about all the bites that are registered as breed unknown? They could be any type of dog these things should be properly registered. Also alot of the dogs that were on the media reports as XL bully are definitely not xl bully therefore pushing statistics in the bully direction again. Same rules apply to all breeds that the dog is not registered only 1 of mine is KC registered (the lab) so statistics are way way off on the bite records because if it says breed unknown then the gov take it as oh another bully bite. The statistics can be whatever they like anyway it doesn't change the fact that a blanket ban without proper enforcement doesn't work , they are still being bred, still being sold, still being abandoned and still being rehomed. There are more Pitbull in the UK now than before the 1991 ban and the same will happen with the XL bully because it makes them more desirable

@Irvine21

I have to be honest, it's really concerning that you earn a large and powerful dog and are either wilfully misrepresenting things to suit your narrative or genuinely don't understand how statistics work and refuse to acknowledge them.

Dog owners like you who aren't willing to safely and sensibly risk assess the potential of different breeds due to their breed characteristics are a large part of the problem.

@Irvine21

The government have done the same as you and used Google statistics.

There's no such thing as 'Google statistics'.

The government (and the various parties involved in advising them) have used the national statistics available, which are also available to read on Google.