Composite classes and deferred P1s

[Nogg]

Can anyone reassure or talk me down from
my stress and annoyance at the school system here.

My DS has been put in a composite class P1/2.
As far as I can see this is due to ability my DS is quite young for age and abilities.
Im not too happy tbh. He is in a birthday groups he could have started school this new academic year.

I feel like the whole system here in Scotland ( compared to England) is very disorganised atm.
Children allowed to start just as they are turning 6 and some only 4. They don’t seem
to learn much in P1.

Also I feel guilty if I kept my DS back he would be an older P1 may have done better and now I’m feeling he is being channeled into late developer.

My other child could read and write in the English system by now phonics and homework.

I feel like he will be discriminated against and disadvantaged in a composite class having to stay in the P1 area with kids playing.

Im really paranoid about labelling children too early and teacher impressions holding people back.

From personal experience I was slightly labelled in primary school even though I ended up excelling academically. My primary experience still affects me on some levels. I think my son and me are similar ; slightly odd socially but able.

Is there anything you can do about composite classes? I feel like he has been give the shorter straw and also they need to get a grip of the age groups and deferrals.

I have a family member who is a primary school head and didn’t defer hers. Neither did the head of my son’s primary.

We have composite classes up here which range from 4-8 and 8-12 because they are rural schools and the intake isn't high enough. It works perfectly fine as the teacher knows how to make the task suitable for the level.

We are deferring my DS as he's a Jan birthday and although he could go to school this Aug he would be one of the youngest and it's noticible with the way he interacts with his peers that another year of nursery will do him good.

I can't help feel like your projecting your own regret at not deferring your son onto "the system". It's parental choice if their birthdays fall at a certain time and parents decide what is right for that individual child.

That is the default in Scotland. If the best outcome for the child relies on their parent knowing deferral is best and not accepting the default then this automatically advantages parents with older kids

Deferral isn’t always best though, the best outcome depends on parents knowing both their child and the options open to them, a default will always disadvantage someone. Having a degree of parental discretion is a good thing, but decisions have to be made knowing no one has a crystal ball so regret is possible when the outcome isn’t as desired.

I agree with having some parental discretion but the issue with the new system is it allows for too big an age range in one year group.
If the parental decision is around whether or not to send their 4 year old then, if Gov says no 4 year olds in P1, then that removes those difficult decisions for parents who face this issue. Very few parents will argue their just turned 5 year old is too young for school, children with additional needs excepted.

I completely agree with this.

Plus class sizes are usually smaller for the composite classes so more teacher time and attention.

As for deferrals I have never met anyone who has regretted deferring.

All round much better than what the English go through worrying about summer borns, children not getting into the same school as their siblings, no chance of a local school and also starting school at 4

?????

In Scotland pupils spend 7 years in primary school then 6 in secondary school.

*?????

In Scotland pupils spend 7 years in primary school then 6 in secondary school.*

@2bazookas in England they spend 14 years in school. Reception plus years 1-13.
I have a relative in exactly the scenario outlined. February birthday and started Reception in England at 4.5, exactly the same time as she would have in Scotland if not deferred.
She left school last year a few months after her 18th birthday and started uni in September at 18.5, a whole year later than she would have in Scotland where she'd have had 13 years of schooling.

Another poster has already explained it but English primaries also have 7 years: Reception then Year 1 up to Year 6. Secondary is then 7 years not 6.

Oh yes! Put perfectly.

I've been in secondary 29 years abd I see it at transition and S4/5/6.

OP, it isn't the system's fault that you didn't defer your child.

I'm English and had no idea about deferral until I had a winter born child and then it seemed to be the main chat at toddler groups 😂. Instead of going 'well in England you start school at 4 so I'll start my child at 4' I spoke to every teacher I knew and asked for their advice. Every single one told me the same thing that @stargirl1701 and @Puffalicious have said. So we deferred.

However, I do agree that the government should just change the starting age to stop any children from starting at age 4. IME middle class parents don't defer because they want to give their kids 'strategic advantage'. They don't defer because they don't think their child is ready at 4.5 (mine absolutely was. Still glad we deferred)
They defer because they've researched, read the academic papers, spoken to friends who work in education, etc. All of that is only available to people with the structural advantages of being able to understand the research, having friends working in ed, and so forth. I think the current set up disadvantages children from already disadvantaged backgrounds - but this is only from my very anecdotal experience of seeing who amongst my friends, neighbours etc has deferred and who hasn't.

'Everyone else is' has definitely created a snowball effect in our nursery. I am feeling quite conflicted already about next year (DS is 4 in Oct).

The 3-5 room is full and there are far more children having another year instead of going off to school and releasing places. Some of the boys really look too big for the environment already. I can't imagine them another year down the line.

My understanding is that Reception is notionally optional and roughly equates in age to the Pre-School Year of Scottish nursery. Reception is within the EYFS stage of the English National Curriculum. Children are not yet CSA - compulsory school age.

Year 1 to Year 6 is English primary school known as KS1 and KS2. This is six years.

Year 7 to Year 13 is English secondary school. This is seven years.

Primary 1 to Primary 7 is Scottish primary school. 7 years.

S1-S6 is Scottish secondary school. 6 years.

I may be wrong. I have never taught in England.

With the new changes coming in from this August there could be almost 6 year olds in P1. A child could start school in August and turn 6 in September

@Merrz

That was my daughter. She started P1 on Aug 2018 and turned six four weeks later.

It was a multi-composite P1/2/3.

I do agree with you OP in some respect regarding the deferral, it seems chaotic to allow such a big age range in 1 class. I think they should of left things as they were Jan/Feb could defer through choice, September - December could apply to defer with good reason / nursery teacher advice. Or they should of just changed the whole cut off date, if you're 5 at start of term in August you go to school if you're still 4 you wait until next year.
I will likely defer DD, she is generally very shy and doesn't interact well in groups so I was swaying towards deferral anyway (January birthday) however the change in rules definitely was my decider as if she starts school at 4 years 7 months she will likely be in a class with children 1 year and 5 months older than her which when she's already quiet and shy i feel can only put her at a disadvantage.

You're right in a sense but as P1 is now so play-based, I'd argue Reception is actually academically more rigorous. It's not really optional in the sense it would be next to impossible in many areas to get a place in Y1, and that only applies to children born April - Aug anyway. Two thirds of children are of compulsory school age whilst in Reception year. Skipping Reception is next to unheard of so children do do 7 years at primary (and are very much included in assemblies, school trips, sports days etc).

I think it depends where you are in DS nursery he's the only one deferring despite it being available to 10 other children. It's going to be tough on him at first but ultimately it's what's right for him.

People who say that composite classes are fine and something good are very wrong in my opinion. From academic achievements prespectice, the optimal for a class is the smallest number of children and the smallest spread between their abilities. This is because what determines the quality of teaching is the hours per child that the teacher devoted and how much the teacher has to deferentiate his/her teaching. You can take it extreme and think what is better a class where all the children are on the same level or a class with children from P1 to P7 and everything in between?
I am really disappointed that in Scotland they practice this.

I love teaching multi-composite classes. I am a big believer in Montessori though. I think it is a true chance for leadership with the older pupils. The younger pupils tend to make more academic progress as they are observing the older pupils learning and internalising those aspects of the curriculum.

There is no difference in planning with regard to levels. I am in a big urban primary school. A straight P5 class has children working from Early to Second Level in the same way a P3/4/5 does.

The issues with planning tends to be in IDL topics.

My DC were in composite classes and really enjoyed and benefited …. Your DS will probably love being the ‘experienced’ P2…. Please make sure you talk about it positively when around him otherwise your worries will transfer to him x

My boys always did well in composite classes and it certainly hasn’t held them back at all. The only one of mine I could have deferred was my eldest who was born at the beginning of October but he started school in 2000 and it was almost unheard of then. Ds2 (26) had quite a few December, January, February deferrals in his class but it wasn’t really until ds3 went to school in 2011 that I heard of September, October, November born deferrals. I like that parents have some choice in when to send their dc to school. I know a lot of people who regret not deferring their child both at P1 and S1 starts. I wouldn’t have wanted any of mine to start school at just turned 4.

I've worked in schools which have composite classes and I'm pleased that will be the system my dd is entering. I know she'll be working at her level rather than at her age.

As a P1 teacher who has worked her socks off with amazing support staff to deliver challenging, enriching and progressive experiences (usually self funded) it's lovely to hear that they learn nothing.

@IamMummyhearmeROAR I wouldn’t worry about it, as I’m sure you are aware there are people who just won’t be satisfied with the education system until their kids get 35 hours of 121 time with a teacher per week.

For all the talk of ‘structural advantage’ and the laughable ‘middle-class parents know more’ nonsense, it basically comes down to people trying to give their kids an advantage.

I’m not saying for a second that there are some kids who shouldn’t be held back, not all kids are equal academically/socially and for some slow developers it may be the right option.

But there seems to be a trend where it is becoming fashionable to do this even when there is no justification.

Personally I think there is nothing sadder than seeing a kid who is far older than their peer group when they hit adolescence.

Where they change physically and emotionally into young adults and their friends still play (rightfully) like the children they are.

Purely my thoughts of course but I feel the rules should be tighter, kids should be with their own age group unless there are developmental issues.

Teachers have been teaching 4 year successfully for quite some time, it should be changed for either everyone or no one.

OP I think you'd be better off speaking with the school about their reasoning behind this particular placement rather than trying to confirm the whole system is just wrong and people should not defer as it gives them unfair advantage.

You mentioned your child is young for age and abilities, and you seem to worry that he'll have the same bad experience you had in primary being labelled early. At the same time, you regret not deferring him. I don't think trying to find more reasons for why deferring/composite classes/ different education systems are wrong will help here.