Composite classes and deferred P1s

[Nogg]

Can anyone reassure or talk me down from
my stress and annoyance at the school system here.

My DS has been put in a composite class P1/2.
As far as I can see this is due to ability my DS is quite young for age and abilities.
Im not too happy tbh. He is in a birthday groups he could have started school this new academic year.

I feel like the whole system here in Scotland ( compared to England) is very disorganised atm.
Children allowed to start just as they are turning 6 and some only 4. They don’t seem
to learn much in P1.

Also I feel guilty if I kept my DS back he would be an older P1 may have done better and now I’m feeling he is being channeled into late developer.

My other child could read and write in the English system by now phonics and homework.

I feel like he will be discriminated against and disadvantaged in a composite class having to stay in the P1 area with kids playing.

Im really paranoid about labelling children too early and teacher impressions holding people back.

From personal experience I was slightly labelled in primary school even though I ended up excelling academically. My primary experience still affects me on some levels. I think my son and me are similar ; slightly odd socially but able.

Is there anything you can do about composite classes? I feel like he has been give the shorter straw and also they need to get a grip of the age groups and deferrals.

My son was the P2 in a P1/2 composite and I was worried.

It was brilliant, the P2 group were smaller than in a fully P2 class obviously, and the overall class size is called lower than a single year class. They were taught appropriately and he absolutely thrived. I wouldn't think twice about a composite class again.

As to the deferral thing. It really depends on the child. My other son has a March birthday and is only two weeks younger than a couple of the kids who were deferred. If anything the extra year at nursery seems to have ended up with them being less mature. No idea why and maybe it's the individuals obviously. My daughter will only be 4 when she starts school but we have decided not to defer her because girls tend to be more mature and she will be ready. It really all depends on the child.

The deferral is an issue here in Scotland in my opinion.

Lots of people where I am have just deferred because they want to . So I worry I have disadvantaged my Ds who I could have deferred.

In England he would have been one of the oldest and not starting school until nearly 6 seems quite old to me. It would be never allowed down south.

Also he never liked the babies in the nursery crying etc.

it seems to be a political motivated thing the SNP always copy anything Scandinavian but they have better funded pre school care and I don’t think their P1 is play based.

when I said not everyone can defer I meant more for financial reasons. You can’t easily work on 30 hours EL funding.

when I said not everyone can defer I meant more for financial reasons. You can’t easily work on 30 hours EL funding.

Our primary school is only in 20 minutes a day more than the pre-school nursery Mon to Thurs and less hours on a Friday. So still need childminder or wraparound, just the same as nursery.

I'm a fan of deferral for winter born children, it's ridiculous how young some children go to school in England. But I do agree OP that it feels like gone too far the other way if some people are sending their children at 4.5 and some at 5 years 11 months.

Personally I think if Scot Gov want children to start school later then they should move the whole cut off dates to eg. October to October so children are between 4 year 10 months and 5 years 10 months.

Yes I agree you said it better than me.
They need a policy to keep the age gap reasonable within a year to be fair.

ds was never in a composite class, so cannot speak from experience, I don't think I like the idea, but can understand they cannot be helped when numbers dictate.

For many dc going to school at 4 is simply not to their benefit, conversely some parents are desperate for their dc to get into school as they are bored in nursery. I am a huge supporter of giving parents the control over the option to defer.

Would you have deferred if you had the option/ability? If yes, the issue is not deferral, the issue is your personal circumstances that meant you didn't/couldn't defer.

Deferral is an issue though if the age gap is too high in the same year group . This leads to an unfair system in my opinion. Also I’m not really sure why it’s been changed. many of the children deferred are clearly socially and emotionally mature enough to be in school.

I agree OP, I've experienced the same overseas. It's fine when the children deferred were born prematurely and due after the cut off, have developmental delays, or are very young for the year, as these children fit in well in the year below.

It's when you have middle class parents deferring children who are ready for school and are well within cut off that there becomes an issue. Then you end up with other young for year children being ready for school but not ready for a cohort where there are many children more than a year older than them. So some of these children are deferred and the cycle continues.

It is an issue. There’s an end of August born child in my DS class who has been deferred as his parents felt it would give him an advantage to be deferred which it clearly has as he started school a week before his 6th birthday along side 4.5 year olds which seems very unfair. It does seem that it would be fairer to just change the cut off dates if the government are so keen on children going to school later.

It must also be costing the government an absolute fortune as suddenly lots of children are having an extra year at nursery.

Terrible experience of composite here. My child is young for the year but clever. They learned nothing whatsoever in their composite classes for 2 years running. We then had to move them which was traumatic at the time but no regrets as they have come on leaps and bounds and are no longer acting up in class cause they are engaged and learning.

My advice, move them. If that isn’t an option, be fully prepared to be ‘that parent’ in order to ensure your child gets an education. It’s a truly terrible system that is failing our kids, but it cheaper…

Which council are are you in @Nogg ? Ours have been very clear that composites are strictly by age and sent out quite a bit of info on how it all works

It sounds like you’ve made your mind up that your child is labelled and disadvantaged by composite classes so I don’t think you’ll listen to me. But my experience of my ds in primary (now p6) and my own childhood in a small village school in the 80s were both entirely positive. There was so much differentiation in each class room, each child genuinely worked at their own level not one dictated by the month of their birth. I appreciate that indicates really good teachers and may not be the case with bad teachers but for us in both schools it was really successful. My friends child in a mixed age tiny school, is the same and another friend in the US teaches in Montessori where her child also attends and p4-7 are all mixed in and taught in ability groups not year cohorts.

Are you sure it's done by ability in the way you say? My child was in a straight P1 class. Then for P2 the class was split, with a majority going to P2/3 and the rest going to P1/2. They chose the ones in the top reading and maths groups to go to P1/2. It was definitely done this way and not by age either. I had apprehensions but actually the teacher was great and very experienced and it worked out well for my child (except for Covid and the second lockdown).

The only change is that if you choose to defer, the nursery place will be funded. In the past that was only true for Jan/Feb births. It is now for Sep-Feb births.

As a teacher, I would always advise defer. It isn't always clear at N/P1 transition but becomes clear at P3, P7/S1 and S4 that deferring gives your child the best chance of achieving the most they can.

As a parent, I deferred my DD1 (Sep birth) before the current change as I could see it was in her best interest regardless of the additional cost to our family.

I couldn't defer DD2 as she is Aug born.

I have not met (in real life) any parent in 24 years of primary teaching who regrets deferring their child. I have met plenty who did when faced with the P7/S1 transition.

I love a composite class as a teacher and a parent. It offers real leadership opportunities for the older children. It offers fabulous enrichment of the curriculum for the younger pupils. I would choose a 3 year multi-composite within the same CfE level as THE gold standard of class organisation. There is a good rationale behind it in the Montessori method.

It is a pain in the arse for planning if it crosses the CfE level though. But, that's a behind the scenes issue.

@Nogg Single working parent here. Nursery is far easier than school. After school, before school and holiday clubs to juggle if you are lucky enough to be able to secure a P1 place. At least when they are in nursery provision is year round 7:30-6pm.
I also don’t understand the argument that deferral costs the councils money, you do realise that school costs councils money too? Probably far more than the 1140.
Teachers in primary schools are used to covering a huge range of abilities in one class. A narrower age range does not automatically equal a narrow range of ability.

You always have the same number of years at school so the cost for putting a child through school is the same regardless. But if you increase the number of years your child has at nursery that will cost the council more.

Most people’s replies are confirming my suspicions. People are deferring for strategic advantage and this is not really fair.
this is just not allowed in England.
if children do better older they should just move the bands of entry or age of exams.
not let some children start at almost 6 and some at 4.5 this is not the correct way to organise a national system in all children’s best interests .

Strategic Advantage? You do realise school isn’t a competition right? Do what’s best for your child. Speak to the school if you’re not happy. If you were in the bracket for deferral and chose not to, why did you make that choice?

We're in a transition period, OP. I suspect in 10 years it will be more settled. Make peace with your decision. It cannot be altered now, for better or worse.

Comparison is the thief of joy.

Just to add a bit of extra context, I presume you’re aware of the reason composites are are more common in Scotland? It’s because of firm catchment boundaries. So, while the composite experience has its issues, the massive advantage is that you know that if you live in an area and apply before the deadline, that you will be going to that school. This is how our council area works anyway.

That is not the case for much of England.

As a teacher I would argue that every class is a composite based on ability. In any given class you will have at least 3 ability groups and may even have a few outliers at end end of the bell-curve. Us teachers are us to planning and teaching for a wide range of learners in our class.

The deferral thing had gone a bit mad, it used to be just Jan/Feb birthdays then Dec birthday now Aug birthdays is a bit ridiculous. I think it’s great we have parental choice up here as I definitely know some 4.6yo who really benefitted from another year at nursery .I do agree that we are seeing more middle class parents deferring children to give them an advantage over their peers though.

P1 is now all about learning through play and not sit down and learn from the whiteboard it’s very different.

Are they more common in Scotland? They are very much the norm in England too, just not given a special name nor any special pupil limit. I teach a mixed class and it's fine. If anything, I teach to the top so the younger ones need to up their game, not the other way round.

Interesting views upthread on when children should start. I started at nearly 5.5 in Scotland and was apparently bored stiff by nursery at that point. My summer born child has nearly completed Reception in England, having started at just turned 4. They have absolutely thrived. Cannot imagine them having to have spent that extra year, and more, at nursery instead.

So really, your issue OP is that you didn't defer your child for whatever reasons, and think that other parents are wrong for not making the same decision as you.

Deferral of Jan/Feb children has been a "thing" for decades, it is not a new concept. You could have given your child that "strategic advantage" and chose not to. By choosing to send him at 4.5 he is always going to be the youngest right through school. You better get used to it as he will be sitting his Nat 5s at just turned 15 along with kids a year older. Last to drive, last to be able to legally drink.

The P1/2 composite thing is an absolute red herring - again this is very common in lots of schools in Scotland, teachers will be experienced in differentiating work between groups just as they would in single year group classes with a range of abilities.

The obvious answer to this would be to speak to the school and explain you regret your decision not to defer and ask whether it would be possible for him to repeat P1 in this composite 1/2 class, and then move into P2 in summer 2024 as one of the oldest rather than the youngest.

Parents never seem to be aware of the range of abilities that can occur in a "straight" class. In a P2 class this is the start of 1st level. But some pupils won't have achieved early. I normally teach around p5 or p6 where you can have kids working on early, 1st and 2nd levels

Agree with you, Fifty. My mum was a P1-P3 teacher her entire career and said every class is a composite class because you never have 25 or 30 kids all working at the same level.

My kids have both been in composite classes practically the whole way through primary school. Sometimes the lower end, sometimes the higher. I hated the idea of it and thought it would be detrimental.

In my experience they have always taught literacy and numeracy in their actual year group and not within their actual class. Have you asked the school about their approach to learning?

Personally I have found the composite expands their social circle in an otherwise small school which has been great for my DCs and I don’t think they’ve been impacted academically.