Composite classes and deferred P1s

[Nogg]

Can anyone reassure or talk me down from
my stress and annoyance at the school system here.

My DS has been put in a composite class P1/2.
As far as I can see this is due to ability my DS is quite young for age and abilities.
Im not too happy tbh. He is in a birthday groups he could have started school this new academic year.

I feel like the whole system here in Scotland ( compared to England) is very disorganised atm.
Children allowed to start just as they are turning 6 and some only 4. They don’t seem
to learn much in P1.

Also I feel guilty if I kept my DS back he would be an older P1 may have done better and now I’m feeling he is being channeled into late developer.

My other child could read and write in the English system by now phonics and homework.

I feel like he will be discriminated against and disadvantaged in a composite class having to stay in the P1 area with kids playing.

Im really paranoid about labelling children too early and teacher impressions holding people back.

From personal experience I was slightly labelled in primary school even though I ended up excelling academically. My primary experience still affects me on some levels. I think my son and me are similar ; slightly odd socially but able.

Is there anything you can do about composite classes? I feel like he has been give the shorter straw and also they need to get a grip of the age groups and deferrals.

Completely agree. My best friend didn't defer her child (based on her cousin was going the same year to the same school) and absolutely regretted it. She's also a teacher and berated herself for years.

The thing about missing a year if you move between England and Scotland is a bit of a red herring because in Scotland you do a whole year of school less. A child born in February in England starts the same Aug/Sept as a child born in February in Scotland, but the Scottish child finishes a year earlier...

I think if you have moved to Scotland from England the education system can be a culture shock. My child is set to be in a composite class next year and I'm not particularly happy about it tbh! I feel at his present level he is 'behind' his English peers and I don't feel that reading and writing has been a priority in P1 & 2 which makes me feel a bit anxious 😬

My DDs BF was young for the year (Jan birthday not deferred) and was in teaching groups for younger kids at the beginning. By end of S5 she got the same grades in her 5 highers as my DD (Feb birthday deferred). I wouldn't worry as long as your DS is appropriately challenged and is making good progress.

At my DCs school you didn't know who was deferred or not unless the parent or kid told you. No stigma either way. Definitely not a I deferred and you didn't thus my child is smarter.

My eldest was before the new curriculum for excellence so less learning thru play. I can't remember thinking the younger two were behind him at the same age in reading and maths. Their primary was good. They did learn things in P1.

I do remember a friend from England visiting in the summer before my middle one started school with her son of the same age who had completed reception. Her son could read loads of words from flashcards and my middle one could only read Asda from the poly bag (I remember the pity looks). Fast forward 2 years and we are on holiday with the boys and I catch her looking at my son's bedtime book and being astonished he had more than caught up.

The passive aggressive conversations re deferring / not deferring were usually not at school, but at pre-school. One of my close friends has a son whose birthday is 26th Feb. She chose to defer him. Another mother whose daughter was born around a week earlier was sending her DD to school at 4.5. Conversation from the non-deferral mother was all "Oh but she's so ready! I just couldn't hold her back and let her be bored with ANOTHER year of pre-school! She is just super clever and so ready to learn, obviously if you're worried about their social skills and academic ability you defer, but I have no worries at all!" While the deferring mother sat and seethed inwardly.

DD is starting on a BEd degree in September and spent one morning a week for the last school year in a P1 class. In about September she said to me "I see what you mean about the benefits of deferral mum...." Some of the younger P1s were very emotionally immature with tantrums and tears every 5 minutes, at that age the difference in maturity between a 4.5 year old and a 5.5 year old is massive. And all those children pushed into school at 4.5 are now leaving S6 aged 17.5 and still not legally an adult for another 6 months.

Yes

There is a slight disconnect though between Scotland having a more play based learning in P1 ( which seems like an environment quite close to a nursery ) and having children staring school at nearly six spending the year before in nursery. Most of the children I have observed who have deferred seem quite old enough emotionally and developmentally for a P1 play based environment. So why would parents defer them?

I think most children feel quite grown up by 17. I lived on my own before I turned 18 so no big deal breaker and I went to the pub. Mind you they didn’t have ID in my day and age!

OP - waaaa, everyone else realised that deferring was a good idea and I didn’t. System is unfair. I wish I lived in another country. My child is going to suffer because I got it wrong.

everyone else- yes, you should have deferred because the other country has it wrong.

OP - it’s unfair……:the SNP
are to blame. The children are suffering being forced to play and be children.

everyone else - ? Really?

@Nogg
As a disabled person I find your original post really insulting. Please educate yourself on what discrimination really is and check your privilege
Calm the fuck down

Ivegotsunshineinabag…
a bit rude.

I’m just passing my personal observations from having children start in both systems.

Also the SNP education outcomes are generally recognised to be poor and now worse than England so why so self assured?

There is a slight disconnect though between Scotland having a more play based learning in P1 ( which seems like an environment quite close to a nursery )

I realise there are differences between individual schools but play based at the school my children attend still involves home work and plenty of "working" and the "play" is often related to what they're meant to be learning as well, i.e money/maths related in the shop. I'd say it's definitely a big step up from free play at preschool.

I have experience of both systems too and I think 4 is too young to start school.

I think just 4 is unnecessarily young.

Nearly 5 is fine. If they are in nursery why can’t they cope with early school. Most people need to work so most kids will be in school or in nursery.

But my main point is having 4.5 and almost 6 year olds in the same stage class is too much of an age difference.

@Nogg

Parents don't defer because of outcomes at N/P1. The vast majority of children will cope in the play based P1.

It's the developmental leap at P3.
It's the P7/S1 transition.
It's the life-changing assessment at S4/5.

Deferral is about maximising life chances not whether 'they'll be fine in P1'

I've been a primary school teacher for 24 consecutive years.

If you can, defer.

As for an age range in one class...

Try Glenlyon Primary School - Nursery to P7 multicomposite for 14 children.

https://blogs.glowscotland.org.uk/pk/glenlyonprimaryschool/

I could find at least 100 other schools in Scotland with the same.

stargirl1701 if this is the case everyone should start later

it just confirms that the system is unfair

I think two or three months where you have a choice would be a good thing. There are children who thrive being the youngest and those better suited to being the eldest. Six months is too much.

That's the entire point of the Upstart Campaign and the Give Them Time Campaign.

Why not join them?

https://upstart.scot

https://givethemtime.org

It an historical anachronism that children start school so young. It is only seen in post-colonial British Empire countries.

Scotland's education landscape is in a state of flux as we move from that context to an evidence-based one. It's a transitional period.

The system is not perfect, no system will ever be, but it giving parents a choice and control to make the right decisions for their individual child is infinitely better than a blanket policy.

When parents make that choice the most basic google research clearly lets them know that there are benefits to children in all stages of their education especially transition to secondary and exam years when they defer. It is also common or easily available knowledge that a huge number defer. Parents also should still have the option to send their child at 4.5 if they feel they are ready.

You chose when to send your child - most parents second guess the decisions they make for their children at some point. I don't see that being a problem with the system.

We've just got SATs for my deferred Y2 england child. Having only behaviour issues going in. They only scraped a 100 on reading but over 110 on maths.
so not ahead at all. Though suspect a lot of that is control of the reading books which has been rubbish.

I think its an issue of sending at 4 or 5 in that its before many sen are obvious.
Really children (especially if they are almost at standard rather than significantly behind ) should be allowed to repeat like other countries. Not doing that is false economy.
If my dd were in y3 now she would be ok in maths but significantly behind in reading. But she is not actually not able she is just really resistant!

So why would parents defer them?

My DS would have been fine in P1 aged 4 and 7 months, but the step to P3/4 and the transition to high school are easier if they’re a bit older so I deferred him. He’s been in 2 composite classes, the younger year in P1/2 and the older year in P4/5, in both cases he flourished in the composite classes. He could work ahead of his year in maths which is a very strong subject for him while working at a slightly lower age in literacy, where he struggles. The teachers were very experienced in differentiating class work. No disadvantage whatsoever.

I really don’t think the onus should be on the parent to do thorough research as to whether or not to defer a child. If your child is 4 on the first of March they will start school that summer unless the parent takes action otherwise. That is the default in Scotland. If the best outcome for the child relies on their parent knowing deferral is best and not accepting the default then this automatically advantages parents with older kids / who for whatever reason didn’t realise they had to research it / who didn’t realise there was an option etc. The best outcome ought not be reserved for ‘those in the know’. It ought to be the default, and that default ought to be mandatory for all children unless a parent can present a school with a professionally endorsed care plan that states otherwise, with the aim of keeping these exceptions to less than 5% of the school role.

Composite classes are fine. Mine have both been in them with no issues. Schools know how to teach children in groups. At the end of the day if the school needs to composite then someone needs to be in them so your son isn’t any different to anyone else.

The school should still do things just for p1 and p2 and not just in the class but the whole year group.

my son was in the 6 side of a 6/5 composite and it was all good. He was nearly 2 years older than some of the p5. He’s now just started s6 and has 7 As at Nat 5 and waiting for the results of 5 highers so not held him back!

This is how it was done in my elder son’s case. The more able kids were chosen for the 6 side of the 6/5 composite as they could work more independently/as a group of p6 while the teacher was working with p5. In my younger son’s case we moved him school and had to go where had space but it was still fine. He was also in the 6 side of a 6/5 composite and he liked the socialising with the p5, as he was young for his year.

The system is not perfect, no system will ever be, but it giving parents a choice and control to make the right decisions for their individual child is infinitely better than a blanket policy

totally agree

my eldest is old for year, my youngest is young for year (November). Neither deferred. I know kids a year older than my youngest in the same year group and they just look ridiculous now compared to the rest of the peer group, like bloody big men 🤣plus when they can drive, go out to a club etc a year ahead of their peers it’s not as much fun when others can’t join in.

in many ways my youngest would have benefited from deferral as he was not only young but has ASD but he loathed nursery and was so unhappy there, another year would have been awful.