Composite classes and deferred P1s

[Nogg]

Can anyone reassure or talk me down from
my stress and annoyance at the school system here.

My DS has been put in a composite class P1/2.
As far as I can see this is due to ability my DS is quite young for age and abilities.
Im not too happy tbh. He is in a birthday groups he could have started school this new academic year.

I feel like the whole system here in Scotland ( compared to England) is very disorganised atm.
Children allowed to start just as they are turning 6 and some only 4. They don’t seem
to learn much in P1.

Also I feel guilty if I kept my DS back he would be an older P1 may have done better and now I’m feeling he is being channeled into late developer.

My other child could read and write in the English system by now phonics and homework.

I feel like he will be discriminated against and disadvantaged in a composite class having to stay in the P1 area with kids playing.

Im really paranoid about labelling children too early and teacher impressions holding people back.

From personal experience I was slightly labelled in primary school even though I ended up excelling academically. My primary experience still affects me on some levels. I think my son and me are similar ; slightly odd socially but able.

Is there anything you can do about composite classes? I feel like he has been give the shorter straw and also they need to get a grip of the age groups and deferrals.

I Wonder what would happen if you defer P1 to 6. Then at some point move to England. I wonder if you would end up missing a school year out as P1 is reception level. In my experience they are quite strict about age brackets ( only summer babies maybe some flex but no one else).

You are comparing apples and oranges. Given the different ages of children entering schools in Scotland/England, there is a 6 month mismatch and you cannot say one school year in Scotland is the same "level" as a year in England as it's not.

A child moving from one system to another would be placed in the correct group for when their birthday fell. This would be the same if it was a Scottish child moving to England or France, or as has happened recently in our school, a child from England or Ukraine moving to Scotland.

Yes exactly so if you move to England you would be placed in your age group.

so you would miss a year of school in effect.

e.g you didn’t start p1 in Scotland until 5 years 11 months but then moved to England the next year you would be put in P2 ( same as P3 here) so you would in effect have missed a year of school .

Y2 is not the same as P3.

This is something parents would have to take into account if they are thinking of moving between two systems - any two systems. Still unsure why you are getting so het up about choices other parents have made if you are so secure in your own choices.

And do you KNOW that there are all these "will be turning 6 between August and Christmas" children who will be in your child's composite class? Just because the rules have changed does not mean that all parents will choose to defer a child born in September - December. Just as not all parents who have a child born in January/February choose to defer now.

Maybe the curriculum is not the same Y2 and P3 but the number is years of schooling is the same .

its Just a interesting consideration if you are thinking you may ever move from the Scottish to the English system

Reception is 4-5
P1 is 4 1/2 to 5 1/2

What year you go into, if you move between the two depends on the month of your birth.

Move between the two countries I mean.

That table comparing the countries is misleading because the cutoff points are different. The English system cuts off 1 Sept so you could have an Aug 31 birthday, turn 4 and start reception a few days later. The Scottish system guarantees a child will be at least 4y 6m before they start school. For many summer born children the English system forces them to start too young. Personally I think the Scottish system is better suited to majority of children.

It's the opposite in P/S years though. Scottish pupils do seven years in primary and six in secondary.

The two systems are very different as are the two populations. They are different countries.

Yes all you say is true but if you defer as much as the new system allows in Scotland then move to English system you would miss a year of primary education if you had to enter your correct year group.

At least you'd only be skipping one year, moving from Australia you could be skipping one and a half years. If deferred you could start school (year before Y1) in January/February at just turned six or almost 6 and if moving to England you would have no choice but to move to Y2 in September.

But this is all academic as OP has not said that she wants to move. Or that anyone wants to move into her child's class. She's just grasping at straws and reasons why it shouldn't be allowed, because she has a bee in her bonnet about not having deferred her child, and composite classes.

The differences between two different education systems in two different countries don't seem to have relevance to your original point though, OP.

I dont think compsite classes are an issue. We often have them in our school, always done strictly on an age basis.

I do think there's an issue now around p1 deferral. Not deferral as such but the spread of ages in a class. Maybe it's time for the govt to consider shifting the cut off date from March to October so everyone is 6 months or so older then go back to the stricter guidance around deferral just for kids born around the cut-off date.

I totally agree @Rae36
It's not deferral per se that's the problem. It's the choices now available can result in an 18 month spread of ages in a class. Another ill thought out policy,
If Scot Gov want children to start school later, which I'm in favour of, they should move the cut off dates to Oct to Oct

No need to move any dates. Just make bring 5 years old by the beginning of August the norm. No more 4 year olds in P1.

But that is moving the cut off dates dates!
Cut off is then August or October or whatever, just not as late as Feb

It's not.

Previously it was Jan/Feb deferral full funding.

Now it is Sep-Feb deferral full funding. Keep that. Don't move it again to Oct. Just eliminate parental choice to send at 4.

So basically, keep the 28th February date, but enforce deferral for any children not 5 by the start of term. So the intake would be 5 and a bit (for children born early March) to almost 6 for children born early September?

Ah ok I see what you mean @stargirl1701
I wasn't thinking of nursery funding. I was just referring to the actual age of the children in the classroom, so their birthdays should all fall within 12 months of each other. So Aug to Aug, Oct to Oct or whatever.
Personally I'm not a great fan of 4 yr olds in school unless they're just a few weeks off turning 5.
It's not just starting school that's the issue, it's being young when moving up to secondary, when sitting exams and when leaving home for college or university.

Keep it simple. If you are 5 in August, you go to school. That's it.

If I were in charge, it'd be 6 mind you...

It will never be that simple and you cannot make everyone happy.

If you allow deferral there will be complaints it isn't fair on younger children who do start.

If you make the age older, there will be complaints of 4.5 year olds who are desperate and ready to go to school (or their parents want them out of their hair!) and it isn't fair they can't go and they will want an option for early entry.

If you do not allow any flexibility and have a set age there will be complaints about that too as it doesn't allow for individual children's needs.

The options that are currently available are as good as any.

Says who? You? It's a parent's right to defer based on the needs of their child and I wholeheartedly welcome it.

I teach and I'm one of those who think all children should be 6 before they go to school (full-time nursery provision if wished from age 3. We need HUGE investment in early years) and I do think the Scottish system will move to age 6- there's lots of traction behind it.

My middle DS is the end of November and wasn't allowed to defer at that time. He was/ is academically able, but socially and emotionally he was not ready for school. At age 16 I still think he's too young to have just sat his Highers- emotionally he should be in the year below. His cousin, 10 months older, is so much more mature, yet in the same year.

Similarly, my neighbour is sending her 4yold this year (Jan birthday) and I am appalled: she is so young, very babyish, speech isn't clear. Obviously I haven't expressed this at all, but it blows my mind why you would send a child at 4 unless you had no choice.

For your comment "It wouldn't be allowed down South' you don't live down South, it's a different country and you made the choice to live here and send your child to school here.

I think a lot of parents send their Jan/Feb babies as some sort of competitive one-upmanship statement. I saw this with some parents of kids in my children's classes. "Oh, Olivia is a February 25th birthday but she's SO advanced and SO ready for school and SO super mature" - subtext - "compared with your clearly immature and socially awkward child who you are "keeping back" by deferring her.

I have had three kids go through school, have known lots of kids who were deferred and lots who were not deferred. Never come across a child who was deferred and whose parents regretted it. Have most definitely come across parents who have regretted not deferring. And it's so obvious when you are in a P1 class who the 4.5 year olds are.

And on the subject of composite classes- many PP have stated correctly that it's the teacher's job to teach your child at THEIR level. Differentiation of materials/ lessons within a standard class is exactly the same as in a composite class- there are always pupils at very different stages no matter what class they're in. In actual fact, there's a 25 max in composites (as opposed to up to 33), a total win in my eyes as DS3 goes into a composite in August.

All 3 of mine have been in a composite at some point- it's just a class like any other. DS1 has always been a Maths genuis (now at uni doing Pure Maths) and he was stretched in every class, particularly his composite I remember, with completely different work set for him and his one friend (now doing engineering). I think your concerns are based on lack of knowledge rather than anything with foundation.