I am currently very pro Scottish Independence…

[Iheartscotland]

what do you think, objectively, are the best arguments for independence?

and/or

for remaining in the union?

Answers that are well reasoned and backed up with facts and figures would be great, but you know- go with whatever you feel.

I did have in my original post that the exception was in '97-2010, but edited it out as thought my post was getting too lengthy. Yes, I get that there is that exception, but that period's just a small proportion of my adult life. The majority of it has been living under a Government that hardly anyone in Scotland voted for. The Tories have been well entrenched for the last 13 years and that doesn't look like changing. Would love to think they'd get put out next time but, sadly i really don't think they will. if anything it feels as if there's actually been a move to the right.

As to Tony Blair, fair enough, Edinburgh born. I guess that means women were over represented in politics in the 80s and had nothing to moan about, since Thatcher was a woman.

I'm Scottish and not emotionally married to either one side of the Indy argument or the other nor have I ever had any party-political allegiance.

The only reason I might have for ever supporting independence is to get away from the corrupt cesspit that is Westminster politics. That aside, I have nothing but goodwill to the rest of the UK and believe we are much stronger together.

My reasons against:
I don't see how anyone can guarantee that Holyrood won't descend to the same level as Westminster. It seems to be heading in that direction.

For all the debate over the years, leading up to Indyref1 and since, I have not heard a single credible explanation as to how the pro-independence crowd propose to actually make it work. All they've got is Saltire-waving, Braveheart bluster. How exactly do they propose we separate out all the elements of trade, commerce and government from a union over 300 years old? I don't see how it could be done without utter carnage along the way and the onus is on the pro movement to persuade me otherwise. They're not even trying to. Unless and until they can actually convince me they have a clue, I support the status quo.

'As to Tony Blair, fair enough, Edinburgh born. I guess that means women were over represented in politics in the 80s and had nothing to moan about, since Thatcher was a woman.'

Bit .

Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh to Scottish parents. He was educated at Fettes College, one of Edinburgh's most prestigious private schools. To suggest the Scottish part of his upbringing didn't have much influence is a bit disingenuous.

So, also, is suggesting no-one in Scotland ever votes Tory. Even in the 2019 election they polled 25%. Prior to the seventies the Tories usually polled pretty equally with Labour

www.statista.com/statistics/1057795/scottish-election-results/

where did i 'suggest' that? think you're missing the point of what i said.

as to the election results - last time Tories were serious contenders in Scotland was way back in the 50s.

I think if we got independence we would stand a very high chance of a Scottish conservative government. This current leadership election shows how wide ranging the politics of the snp are. Without the unifying belief in independence I think the SNP will dissolve. And for the last 2 elections the conservatives have won the second biggest share of seats. Those wanting independence to get away from Tories are going to be disappointed in my view.

'where did i 'suggest' that? think you're missing the point of what i said.'

I think you were implying Tony Blair's Scottishness was as relevant as Margaret Thatcher being PM meant women had achieved equality. I disagree, I think Tony Blair's upbringing by Scottish parents, and schooling at a very 'Scottish' school will have influenced him in later years.

My point about the Tories was, to read some posters, you'd think no-one in Scotland votes Tory, and that's simply not true. They may not be in contention, but they certainly receive more votes than the number of SNP MPs would suggest. Proportional representation would probably serve the Tories well in Scotland.

My reasons against:
I don't see how anyone can guarantee that Holyrood won't descend to the same level as Westminster. It seems to be heading in that direction.

psst, would you like £600,000? Found it down the back of a sofa at SNP HQ

My point wasn't about his degree of Scottishness, any more than it was about Thatcher's degree of femaleness. I just don't think that the fact we've had a Scottish PM therefore categorically proves Scotland as a whole is fairly represented and can have no cause for complaint. Any more than having a female PM meant women were fairly represented.

I've never said no-one in Scotland votes Tory, but over the course of my lifetime I've not seen them voting that way in large numbers. The Tories have made some headway at recent elections, yes. But on Scotnet around election times every second post was by someone saying 'i'm not a tory but i'm voting for them to get SNP out/to stop another referendum'. There was a big tactical voting strategy campaign wasn't there? Even Labour were encouraging people to vote tory in some constituencies to stop SNP getting in. So that all helped bump the tory vote up, but i don't think it reflects how most people would vote in any normal circumstance.

By the same token though people vote SNP to keep Tories out. I am a unionist but I've voted SNP in the past tactically. This is why elections shouldn't be treated as referendums.

what do you think, objectively, are the best arguments for independence?

There are no good arguments for separatism. The concept is predicted on determinedly keeping a chip on both shoulders and sentimentality.

predicted ? based

This is fascinating

robinmcalpine.org/this-farce-is-now-a-national-embarrassment/

@NatashaDancing

Exactly.

There are no significant differences between the populations of Scotland and rUK. Same language, religions, values, same mix of ethnicities, climate, geography.
For every hyped up difference between Scotland and England you could find an equivalent between different parts of Scotland.

Always have been and always will be pro independence. I’m worried about it not happening in my lifetime now though.

Good luck paying your doubled mortgage each month, Ziga. Your salary or pension will be paid in the new devalued Scots currency (within 3 months, according to Forbes) worth a predicted 50% of the pound. But your mortgage to a British building society will still be due in pounds Sterling, so will effectively double.

And the SNP’s own Sustainable Growth Commission have admitted there will be 200,000 job cuts, as Scotland can’t afford its current public sector without Westminster subsidies, and a £290 billion hit to the Scots economy.
If you’re still keen on independence, I have a herd of unicorns to sell you.

If enough Scottish people want independence, go for it.
However, what I don't understand is why those people would want to be part of the EU? Surely if you cast off being part of one union, why would you want to join another?
Is it because they feel Brussels is better than Westminster? This makes no sense to me, but if anyone is of that opinion, I'm happy to hear their explanation.

A hugely reduced public sector just at the moment when the new Scottish government needs to fund entirely new public sector functions. Wonderful.

How exactly is Scotland going to build the diplomatic service that will enable it to operate effectively as a state and negotiate the many, many things states need to negotiate?

See also any defence and national security capacity.

Trade and industry is a reserved power, so an independent Scotland needs to set up the capacity to regulate this - and negotiate trade agreements internationally.

And so on and so on. This isn’t minor stuff that can just be figured out at some point in the future. How is Scotland going to produce a viable currency and a stable economy that will allow its citizens to actually live without the above?

yes I don't get wanting to join EU we want independence so not controlled by other parliaments especially UK government in Westminister where our representation according to percentage of population is 1 in 11 MP's to Brussels controlling where our representation according to population is about 1 in a 100 MEP's ie a tiny tiny bit of a say
otheriwse it is not about independence but basically switching bosses
I am pro- union but if it is independance it must be genuine independance not swapping Westminister for Brussels

"switching bosses"
Good phrase, @Cottagecheeseisnotcheese

Ziga : what makes you think the SNP could sort out independence ( as they will be the party to whom this onerous task will fall ) when they can’t set up a bottle return scheme ?

Nor can they buy a new ferry.

The new Scottish currency worth half of the British pound? Pray tell, where did you get that from?

So, Scotland is so uniquely incompetent that it can't do what virtually every single other country in the world does?

Ok, let's just lurch on and on into eternity then aye, staying dependent on those who know better and being, as we were told upthread and are told almost daily on mumnet, a 'financial drain' on England

The economic case was very clearly set out by the Unionist side in 2014. The separatist side spectacularly failed to address the issue beyond saying the Bank of England would be the bank of last resort.

I take it you've never heard of the Barnett Formula?

But it's not a case of being "dependant" or otherwise - it's simply there's no coherent, logical or same argument for breaking up the UK.

If they genuinely thought Scotland was too wee, too poor and too stupid, they would happily cut Scotland loose. The people trying to keep Scotland in the UK are the same ones who consistently voted in a corrupt Tory Government. They don't care about people who they consider poor and stupid, so they sure as heck wouldn't care about a country that was.
They know exactly what Scotland brings to the union and that's why they don't want Scotland to leave. They also would find it much more difficult to push through neoliberal policies and a FTP system when everyone could see a very different political landscape over the border.