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Original poster

Dundee University gives contextual offers to transgender pupils

121 replies

Aphrathestorm · 31/01/2023 21:58

https://www.dundee.ac.uk/corporate-information/contextual-admissions-policy

I was looking into the widening access policies of Scottish universities and came across this on Dundee University's website.

All the others are very clear that any protected characteristics in the Equality Act (sex,disability,race etc) are not in any way considered as part of the application process.

Not only is this a potentially unlawful policy but it could lead to vulnerable pupils being pushed into transing by parents/teachers who want them to get into certain courses eg Medicine.

OP posts:
TheOriginalEmu · 02/02/2023 23:20

slamfightbrightlight · 01/02/2023 01:52

How do you prove you’re non-binary?

Show quote history

You have to be living as a non-binary person, that would require change of pronouns with schools/college, maybe legal name change, maybe on pathway for medical transitions etc.
I would say that the criteria doesn’t actually mention if they consider nonbinary to be under the trans umbrella so it could be they do not. Also There would have to be specific criteria to meet to be considered transgender for this purpose, in the same way those in care, those with disability etc would have to provide proof. They aren’t going to just take your word for it, or any of the daft, disingenuous examples peopld are making up in order to distract from the point.

in the same way not all people from disadvantaged areas (who are considered a cat 1 btw, so higher need than trans people) need the exemption applied but they will, or all disabled people, or all care leavers (I left care with 4 A grade A levels but I still got guaranteed interviews because of my care leaver status) then maybe not all trans people require the contextual offer, but as s group it is recognised that trans kids have a very hard time at school and this aims to redress that. If you have a problem with one recognised group of people who experience hardship, then you should feel the same about all of them.

Shelefttheweb · 03/02/2023 10:11

There would have to be specific criteria to meet to be considered transgender for this purpose, in the same way those in care, those with disability etc would have to provide proof. They aren’t going to just take your word for it,

Have you not been following the Gender Recognition Reform Bill? The whole point of it is THEY DO JUST TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT.

That is why it is unravelling for Nicola Sturgeon as she what she has been saying about the predatory serial rapist contradicts what her own bill says.

Shelefttheweb · 03/02/2023 10:15

You have to be living as a non-binary person

We all live as non-binary persons. I wear most commonly wear jeans and t-shirts. I take leadership roles in groups and can handle power tools. I never wear heels or makeup. I am more interested in science subjects than arts and humanities. I don’t care two hoots what pronouns people use to refer to me in my absence.

MichelleScarn · 03/02/2023 10:27

You have to be living as a non-binary person, that would require change of pronouns with schools/college, maybe legal name change, maybe on pathway for medical transitions etc.
What's a 'non-binary' name?
What are you transitioning from/to if you are non-binary?

FrancescaContini · 03/02/2023 10:49

MichelleScarn · 03/02/2023 10:27

You have to be living as a non-binary person, that would require change of pronouns with schools/college, maybe legal name change, maybe on pathway for medical transitions etc.
What's a 'non-binary' name?
What are you transitioning from/to if you are non-binary?

Yes, it’s just gobbledegook, isn’t it?

WTF is a non-binary name? 😂

titchy · 03/02/2023 10:54

WTF is a non-binary name? 😂

Alex or Sam. Grin

slamfightbrightlight · 03/02/2023 10:55

I have a non-binary name in that it is used for both sexes. I was also “misgendered” by email this week (the literal violence of it!). I’m currently wearing trousers. Feel like I’m ticking a lot of boxes right now!

MichelleScarn · 03/02/2023 10:58

#thoughtsandprayers going out to you @slamfightbrightlight

Does this mmajority of nhs staff are non binary, what with wearing of the scrubs and tunics/trousers?

FrancescaContini · 03/02/2023 10:59

When oh when is this ideology going to become a subject for mainstream comedy? I know Ricky Gervaise has touched on it but surely the time is soon upon us when we can, as a nation / world, have a huge, open laugh at this load of nonsensical bolleaux? It’s so ripe for it. It’s already almost a parody of itself.

Shelefttheweb · 03/02/2023 12:49

FrancescaContini · 03/02/2023 10:59

When oh when is this ideology going to become a subject for mainstream comedy? I know Ricky Gervaise has touched on it but surely the time is soon upon us when we can, as a nation / world, have a huge, open laugh at this load of nonsensical bolleaux? It’s so ripe for it. It’s already almost a parody of itself.

I was at a pantomime before Christmas. It was a professional production (I hate Panto but if I must I prefer amateur as it all feels that way anyway). There was a section of ad libbing that followed on from a slip-up calling the pantomime dame “he”. The audience thought it all very funny. I was surprise because I thought the arts were fully captured.

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 03/02/2023 15:15

'I have a transgender child. In the last year he has been physically assaulted twice, surrounded in a bathroom numerous times, suffers daily abuse and bullying and as such has missed a decent amount of school. The stress of this abuse has caused him to develop tics and migraines so severe, he was taken by ambulance to hospital as they thought he had had a stroke.
his story of what it’s like to be trans at school isn’t unique. That’s why.'

That sort of bullying is appalling- so sorry they hurt your DC do much- and yet many children face it in school. It is horribly normal.

It doesn't have to be about being trans (though it was for your DC ) You can be picked out for almost anything (red hair; wearing glasses; having a 'funny' name; being small/tall.)

Bullies make it all about something in their victim but really they are out to make someone suffer. Reason does not come into it.

The 'packs' of children who join the bully are frightened for themselves or proud to be 'in' rather than bullied for their qualities.

Adults have to step in.

SallySailor · 03/02/2023 15:54

TheOriginalEmu · 31/01/2023 22:21

I have a transgender child. In the last year he has been physically assaulted twice, surrounded in a bathroom numerous times, suffers daily abuse and bullying and as such has missed a decent amount of school. The stress of this abuse has caused him to develop tics and migraines so severe, he was taken by ambulance to hospital as they thought he had had a stroke.
his story of what it’s like to be trans at school isn’t unique. That’s why.

Show quote history

This is absolutely awful for your child, however these experiences don't qualify for a contextual offer for other applicants. E.g.i have a DC who fell ill in their mid teens and who never recovered. They have minimal school attendance, crippling pain including a migraine lasting a couple of months in the lead up to GCSEs, and loss of most of their social network. The mental repercussions have been unbearable. They along with other disabled or chronically ill students would not qualify for contextual offers.

Shelefttheweb · 03/02/2023 16:10

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 03/02/2023 15:15

'I have a transgender child. In the last year he has been physically assaulted twice, surrounded in a bathroom numerous times, suffers daily abuse and bullying and as such has missed a decent amount of school. The stress of this abuse has caused him to develop tics and migraines so severe, he was taken by ambulance to hospital as they thought he had had a stroke.
his story of what it’s like to be trans at school isn’t unique. That’s why.'

That sort of bullying is appalling- so sorry they hurt your DC do much- and yet many children face it in school. It is horribly normal.

It doesn't have to be about being trans (though it was for your DC ) You can be picked out for almost anything (red hair; wearing glasses; having a 'funny' name; being small/tall.)

Bullies make it all about something in their victim but really they are out to make someone suffer. Reason does not come into it.

The 'packs' of children who join the bully are frightened for themselves or proud to be 'in' rather than bullied for their qualities.

Adults have to step in.

I was bullied at school, including physically assaulted, for being smart and ‘posh’ (we had moved there so I didn’t have a local accent, I wouldn’t call it posh though). But on this basis smart middle class kids should get priority via widening access...

TheOriginalEmu · 04/02/2023 00:03

SallySailor · 03/02/2023 15:54

This is absolutely awful for your child, however these experiences don't qualify for a contextual offer for other applicants. E.g.i have a DC who fell ill in their mid teens and who never recovered. They have minimal school attendance, crippling pain including a migraine lasting a couple of months in the lead up to GCSEs, and loss of most of their social network. The mental repercussions have been unbearable. They along with other disabled or chronically ill students would not qualify for contextual offers.

Show quote history
  1. Yes. They would. The list has ‘declared a disability or mental health condition’ on the list in category 2, which is the same category as being transgender.
  2. I was responding to someone who asked why being transgender affects getting normal grades. Clearly this experience will affect grades, as would your child’s experience, and that’s why they are both listed under category 2.
TheOriginalEmu · 04/02/2023 00:08

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 03/02/2023 15:15

'I have a transgender child. In the last year he has been physically assaulted twice, surrounded in a bathroom numerous times, suffers daily abuse and bullying and as such has missed a decent amount of school. The stress of this abuse has caused him to develop tics and migraines so severe, he was taken by ambulance to hospital as they thought he had had a stroke.
his story of what it’s like to be trans at school isn’t unique. That’s why.'

That sort of bullying is appalling- so sorry they hurt your DC do much- and yet many children face it in school. It is horribly normal.

It doesn't have to be about being trans (though it was for your DC ) You can be picked out for almost anything (red hair; wearing glasses; having a 'funny' name; being small/tall.)

Bullies make it all about something in their victim but really they are out to make someone suffer. Reason does not come into it.

The 'packs' of children who join the bully are frightened for themselves or proud to be 'in' rather than bullied for their qualities.

Adults have to step in.

Of course bullying can happen for all kinds of reasons. And there is recourse in the category 2 list for severe bullying for other reading: mental health conditions, vulnerable children, disrupted education are all on that list.
the list also says ‘includes’ so is not exhaustive.
people seem to be making the narrative that trans kids are getting something other kids with problems won’t and that’s just not the case, it’s ONE of SEVERAL things that can be considered under category 2. People are not reading it properly and wanting to make it something it is not.

TheOriginalEmu · 04/02/2023 00:15

MichelleScarn · 03/02/2023 10:27

You have to be living as a non-binary person, that would require change of pronouns with schools/college, maybe legal name change, maybe on pathway for medical transitions etc.
What's a 'non-binary' name?
What are you transitioning from/to if you are non-binary?

I didn’t say there was such thing as a non-binary name. I said a person may change their name to reflect being trans.it’s common in trans people of all types to feel the need for a new name as their old name feels like it doesn’t reflect who they are. The question asked how you prove nonbinary/transness and that was just one example of something a person does. Don’t try and twist my words to fit your agenda.
its very obvious what a person is transitioning from/to.

TheOriginalEmu · 04/02/2023 00:16

Shelefttheweb · 03/02/2023 10:15

You have to be living as a non-binary person

We all live as non-binary persons. I wear most commonly wear jeans and t-shirts. I take leadership roles in groups and can handle power tools. I never wear heels or makeup. I am more interested in science subjects than arts and humanities. I don’t care two hoots what pronouns people use to refer to me in my absence.

Great. I’m happy for you. None of those things have anything to do with being nonbinary.

Shelefttheweb · 04/02/2023 00:17

TheOriginalEmu · 04/02/2023 00:08

Of course bullying can happen for all kinds of reasons. And there is recourse in the category 2 list for severe bullying for other reading: mental health conditions, vulnerable children, disrupted education are all on that list.
the list also says ‘includes’ so is not exhaustive.
people seem to be making the narrative that trans kids are getting something other kids with problems won’t and that’s just not the case, it’s ONE of SEVERAL things that can be considered under category 2. People are not reading it properly and wanting to make it something it is not.

Show quote history

Transgender kids ARE getting something other kids won’t. They are put on the category 2 list by virtue of simply being transgender which discriminates against those with the inverse protected characteristic. If they also have mental health conditions as a result of bullying then they may be placed in category 1, whereas those with mental health conditions from bullying for eg being a Muslim would only be in category 2.

vulnerable children and disrupted education are define in a way that wouldn’t include bullying.

TheOriginalEmu · 04/02/2023 00:19

DuncanBiscuits · 01/02/2023 07:47

Ladybrain, innit? Too full of kittens and pink leggings and having boobs to pass exams.

🙄

Show quote history

Literally bullshit. Nothing to do with it. Being transgender in education causes huge issues with bullying, exclusion, missed school, all kinds of things. That’s the reason. Or do kids who are bullied not matter if you don’t like them?

lifeinthelastlane · 04/02/2023 00:19

I don't think many of us are really clear on what being non-binary actually means. I mean, in a way that can be explained to another person.

Shelefttheweb · 04/02/2023 00:20

TheOriginalEmu · 04/02/2023 00:16

Great. I’m happy for you. None of those things have anything to do with being nonbinary.

Show quote history

Please explain what nonbinary is and how you live as someone nonbinary.

Dotcheck · 04/02/2023 00:21

Shelefttheweb · 01/02/2023 00:00

It just goes to prove these ‘contextual offers’ are all about social engineering.

I’m not sure what your point is?

Shelefttheweb · 04/02/2023 00:23

TheOriginalEmu · 04/02/2023 00:19

Literally bullshit. Nothing to do with it. Being transgender in education causes huge issues with bullying, exclusion, missed school, all kinds of things. That’s the reason. Or do kids who are bullied not matter if you don’t like them?

Show quote history

What about being transgender means that for them to “continue attendance at school would be seriously detrimental to order and discipline in the school or the educational wellbeing of the learners there”?

Arrrrrrragghhh · 04/02/2023 00:24

The issue with trans kids getting lower offers on that basis though is that they can get it whether or not they’ve been bullied or it’s been a traumatic journey. A perfectly happy trans person could get it.

There’s nothing inherently in being trans that warrants a lower offer.

Bullying or years of angst is covered under mental health conditions.

Topolectic · 04/02/2023 00:26

I really hate Mumsnet right now. Im all for women's rights. Im a lifelong feminist.

I've been here for about 13 years and it seems like anything regarding anything to do with trans rights is so black and white, and regarded as negative (not accusing anyone of anything as serious as transphobia of course).

Where are the shades of grey? Can we have a discussion about what might be possible, or positive, rather than losing the plot on what might be wrong?

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