Non-deprived Scottish students barred from uni places

[Sorefootouch]

The only Scottish students taken by Edinburgh university last year to study law came from deprived neighbourhoods, regardless of grades. Is this a good thing? If my child wants to go to University of Edinburgh and study law do we have to move to a deprived neighbourhood before applying? Is this fair? My child goes to an average Scottish state school and is predicted to get all A’s at higher.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/students-from-less-deprived-background-have-door-closed-to-university-due-to-snp-funding-approach-3983059

No they are guaranteeing an offer. They go on to clarify this by saying

”Unfortunately, we can’t make this absolute guarantee in every situation. For degrees where we assess more than academic grades, an offer cannot be guaranteed for all "Plus Flag" applicants and in those cases, extra credit will be given in the overall selection process.”

So only in certain subjects do you need an interview

and then they say

”In a very small number of degrees, we may have more "Plus Flag" applicants than we have places available, and we would not be able to make offers to every one of those applicants in that situation.”

The guarantee is for an offer but you will still need to meet the minimum entry requirements.

If there are limited spaces then it is best to give it to deprived students. They are the ones that need the most help in life and if we want to have a fairer society we must try and level things up.

If there are limited places - we should unlimit the places.

The LEAP thing seems very unfair to other areas of Scotland

You cannot take the paragraph you are quoting out of context of the preceeding paragraph -

In the majority of cases, a "Plus Flag" applicant will be guaranteed an offer at the minimum entry requirement. "Plus Flag" applicants need to be predicted to meet - or have already met -those grades, and have any required subject.

Unfortunately, we can’t make this absolute guarantee in every situation. For degrees where we assess more than academic grades, an offer cannot be guaranteed for all "Plus Flag" applicants and in those cases, extra credit will be given in the overall selection process.

The absolute guarantee they are talking about is the one in the previous paragraph of min requirements, not an offer. Ds clarified this with admissions staff at the open day. He and his gf both had a plus flag and applied to Edinburgh. He applied for MEng engineering she applied for law/politics joint honours. He got an offer, his gf didnt with 7As NAT5, 5As Higher and predicted to do well in 2AH, 2H in S6. She ended up accepting a conditional offer from Glasgow for an extra A in S6.

Is it not geared towards people getting into local unis? I used to work in this area years ago, and I think one of the challenges seen with those coming from a background where none of their family had been to university before was that they didn’t feel comfortable necessarily with moving into student accommodation and would rather stay at home. Being able to access their local uni was fairly important in getting these kids into a university education.

But I think a lot of these schemes are a fairly blunt tool. Some of the schools we helped with were surprisingly middle class. Maybe criteria such as free school meals would be more targeted.

In the majority of cases, a "Plus Flag" applicant will be guaranteed an offer at the minimum entry requirement. "Plus Flag" applicants need to be predicted to meet - or have already met -those grades, and have any required subject.

Unfortunately, we can’t make this absolute guarantee in every situation. For degrees where we assess more than academic grades, an offer cannot be guaranteed for all "Plus Flag" applicants and in those cases, extra credit will be given in the overall selection process.

Also notice on the site they have bolding as above to try to make it clearer, although the wording could be misunderstood.

How do you then consider the next sentence:

”In a very small number of degrees, we may have more "Plus Flag" applicants than we have places available, and we would not be able to make offers to every one of those applicants in that situation.”

There is no suggestion that this refers to the grades

I can see that but it disadvantages those from outwith the area where there may not be an option of a local university.

yes, that’s a good point. Not everyone has a similar option.

The reliance on SIMD1 postcodes also disadvantages people from rural areas as the rural areas don't tend to have any SIMD1 postcodes. It doesn't mean there isn't deprivation, it just isn't concentrated in the same way as in urban areas.

I would still take it within the context of the previous paragraph and the paragraph it is in. As I said ds asked admissions staff directly and they were clear for widening access the min entry requirements are guaranteed but the offer wasn't, they would be considered against all applicants.

I am not saying a widening access applicant is not prioritised by being given extra credit, and it does potentially mean if there are many very good widening access applicants it may cause the issue that has been seen for a handful of courses in Edinburgh, and they may need to reconsider their selection process.

Without seeing stats precovid the issue has possibly occurred due to covid grade inflation and more widening access candidates getting more As which has impacted the selection process/min grades required calculations. That doesn't mean the principle of giving widening access candidates who have had education disadvantages more credit is wrong, but there has been an issue with the application of the process.

I’d be very surprised if this is a national problem as I don’t know anyone who didn’t get into their first choice course at a Scottish uni but I live in Edinburgh so most of the kids I know didn’t apply here as they wanted to go away.

i agree LEAPS is a blunt instrument as the criteria above for Edinburgh uni confirms my DC would be guaranteed a place due to the school they attend even though we live in an SIMD 10 area. I don’t understand this though as there are surely kids with similar circumstances to mine who have gone under the same rules and would show up as non-SIMD 1 dwelling students. Unless the courses were so oversubscribed that the SIMD criteria was applied as well anyway.

And I agree about rural areas, especially those with no local uni. The SIMD zone for the area I grew up is massive and pointless and there is one local campus 20+ miles away which is an offshoot of a university with a not particularly brilliant reputation (and this wasn’t even an option when I lived there, it was leave or nothing).

I knew Edinburgh Uni reserved some places for local students who didn't have the ability to move away for uni but never imagined they'd allocate all the places.
I actually think there is a hidden agenda to cut numbers studying at Uni ( especially humanities subjects) and promote alternatives like graduate apprenticeships. Ironically I know several boys from both private and good state schools who have jumped at the chance, nice for them but possibly not a win for social mobility.
DS is applying for Edinburgh Uni ATM, he's studying at Edinburgh College and his term time address is Granton, which counts as a deprived area, however I suspect they only count your . home address. I think being at college in Edinburgh can help with widening access schemes. We didn't plan it but it might actually help him get a place.

I think a lot of teens will find this very unfair,my teens have/had a very strong sense of fairness
Will they turn against the SNP

For children in the central who want to go away to study Edinburgh Uni is the main choice

If they that is taken away as an option more of them will probably stay at home,which I think is a pity

There seems to be a view on this thread that kids who don’t live in the specified post codes are little princes/princesses with pots of cash
That is very far from the truth

DD wants to do primary teaching. Glasgow obviously has the highest grade requirements. She has a better chance of getting into UWS than Glasgow as they consider which school you go to when Glasgow doesn't (DD attends a lower performing school) and so meets the minimum grade critera there.
However the UWS campus is a 2 hour train journey both ways and as DD will only be 17 (youngest in her year) I am not keen on her moving away and she also agrees she'd feel uncomfortable.
Strathclyde appear to also consider the school you attend but everyone wants to go to Strathclyde for teaching so there's still a lot of competition.
So the widening participation criteria may force DD to either move away or look at other courses instead.

Is it possible to apply for a less popular course and change course? That’s what I did when I was an undergrad at Edinburgh. I actually went back and did a masters there aged 45 a few years ago and got a funded place (£12k saving) but that was pre-covid 19.

@RumblePhish I went to Edinburgh in 1988 and I remember a few posh chaps desperately trying to change from Divinity ( easy to get into) to something more useful. The uni wasn't having it then, and I doubt they'd have it now.

I was there from 1990 and I changed straight away from the initial joint degree I had chosen to a different joint degree then dropped to a single degree then changed course to the other option I’d been studying as the joint degree by repeating a year - am sure they loved me… This was all within the soc sci faculty (although was different departments). I don’t know how common this amount of flexibility was as I don’t know anyone who has been as flakey as me.

To clarify, this wasn’t a deliberate strategy on my behalf - I didn’t set out to do this and my initial options weren’t unpopular. But the fact I was able to change, I wondered if there were options there.

Are there really that many ruk students looking to do Scot’s law though?

It wasn’t just law though, also English Literature, Philosophy, Psychology and a few others.

These limited places are given with preference to the most deprived students.

This isn’t true though. They are given with preference to students who live in areas with the highest proportion of deprivation. Nothing about the student themselves. The majority of deprived students do not live in these areas.

She has a better chance as it's less competitive.

UWS is fab for teaching. Glasgow / Strathclyde focus much more on theory than how to actually teach. Where are you based? Two hours from Hamilton? As she can attend there.