Non-deprived Scottish students barred from uni places

[Sorefootouch]

The only Scottish students taken by Edinburgh university last year to study law came from deprived neighbourhoods, regardless of grades. Is this a good thing? If my child wants to go to University of Edinburgh and study law do we have to move to a deprived neighbourhood before applying? Is this fair? My child goes to an average Scottish state school and is predicted to get all A’s at higher.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/students-from-less-deprived-background-have-door-closed-to-university-due-to-snp-funding-approach-3983059

Edinburgh don't use LNAT or interview so with the grade inflation it was probably really difficult to differentiate between applicants last year. The criteria they used seem perfectly reasonable to me in the circumstances.

Have they said don't apply this year if you are Scottish and not widening access? Entry might be more normal this year.

Having good students spread over all law schools in Scotland can only be good thing. Although I understand the frustration of those local to Edinburgh who cannot move away from home (although free bus might help those willing to commute to Glasgow/Dundee).

What I think would be a fair approach would be to make exams sufficiently tricky so that we could separate out the good from the outstanding, then give those from more deprived backgrounds more weighting accordingly. The problem comes where grade inflation is such that everyone is given a A, and those from the deprived backgrounds are automatically picked, no matter how outstanding a pupil from an average Scottish postcode may be.

There is also a limit on overall funding for Scottish students so free tuition comes at a cost of fewer places.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/funding-structure-leading-to-artificial-cap-for-scottish-students-at-universities-in-scotland-according-to-think-tank-3788400

I agree too many students are given A now and it makes it difficult to differentiate

Well this is the nub of the problem:

The Scottish government caps the number of places, because they have to fund the places and they can’t afford to fund many of them.

These limited places are given with preference to the most deprived students.

There are no places left for average Scottish students.

do we think this is fair?

There are still many more places for less able students from the rest of the UK and overseas students, who are welcomed in by Edinburgh university and others because the income from these students is needed to offset the loss-making Scottish students. I wouldn’t have a problem if average or wealthy Scottish students could pay the rUK rate to access uncapped Scottish university places, but we are paying our (higher) taxes for things like university places, only to be barred from these university places for the crime of living in a non-deprived, average area. It’s bonkers!

I didn't go to uni or get a degree because I didn't make the cut. I have no problems with Scottish government/universities only funding a set number of places for the top scottish students to have access to free education. I also have no problem with universities balancing the books with fee paying students.

Assuming the Edinburgh scenario it is not a one off anomaly due to the impact of covid on education then the means of identifying the top Scottish students for the capped free spaces (taking into account any educational/social disadvantages) needs to be changed, it should still be competitive but fairly applied.

Not everyone who wants to go to uni should be funded if they don't make the top cut. But if they have the grades required for entry I would agree with pp they should be allowed to apply on the same terms as rUK or international students (preferably, if affordable, through a separate student loan system).

it would be a fairer system to charge every Scottish student tuition fees and give grants to those from a deprived background, but that’s politically untenable for the SNP. So we are stuck with the current system where your average Scottish school leaver is barred from prestigious courses due to Scottish government policies. Crazy!

Looking at the SIMd map now, an applicant for law with straight A’s from Sighthill, Dumbiedykes and Stenhouse would all be too privileged to get in. Totally mind blowing! Drylaw, Pilton, also too privileged.

OP not sure your info is correct my DD lives in one of the areas you mention. I typed her post code into Edinburgh contextual offer checker and it eligible. It doesn't get the top flag probably because of school catchment (Gillespie's).

I think Law last year was a special case.

From my DDs experience (she has a job in 1st year uni accommodation). Scottish students at Edinburgh tend to be privately educated or from good state schools. Its definitely not awash with low SIMD students.

DD went to a high performing state school where the norm was 5As. It must be difficult to differentiate between them. I would favour offers based on AHs or other tests rather than allowing the rich to buy their places.

Personally I don't know of anyone Scottish who wanted to go to uni not get a place somewhere (maybe not their first choice uni or subject but something similar).

168 out of 170 places went to students in quintile one postcodes:

simd.scot/#/simd2020/BTTTFTT/9/-4.0000/55.9000/

it is quite the eye opener. But thanks for your message. It gives me a bit of hope that even if my kids get straight A’s from an average high school we might be able to access what we pay our high taxes for.

I don't think this is right at all, no. Scotland punishes those who are well off with high taxes, and the university places system, so that those who have paid for it don't benefit from it.

It's extraordinary that places are not given to high achieving Scottish students purely because they are Scottish. By all means support and encourage those from lower income backgrounds with grants and low interest loans, but not at the expense of other deserving students.

This is excellent news and a policy success. Widening access and levelling-up for the most disadvantaged can only be a good thing.

This smacks of 'please wont someone think of the middle class kids.'

This smacks of 'please wont someone think of the middle class kids.'

From Dumbiedykes and Drylaw

So you're annoyed that their attempts to widen access to university education to students from areas of deprivation cannot be circumvented by wealthy parents volunteering to pay more to keep the poorer kids out?

This is simply not true. Using a postcode for Dumbiedykes flats and attending St Thomas Aquinas the student would be awarded a 'plus flag' under the widening access criteria, meaning they would need to meet minimum entry requirements. A student attending James Gillespies with the same postcode would get a 'flag' meaning that they would be prioritised but need to meet standard entry requirements.

Likewise a student living in Drylaw and attending St Augustine's would get a plus flag and attending Royal High would get a flag.

So the Scottish Government expect middle class parents to pay for Scottish universities, yet make it impossible for your average Scottish student to attend? And this is a good policy???

But the high rise flats at Dumbiedykes are in quintile 2 SIMD, and 168 of the 170 places in on the law course went to pupils in SIMD 1 and so those living in the high rise Dumbiedykes flats would not be within the 168.

In what way is it widening access when the places all go to SIMD kids? In what way can an average Scottish kid access Scottish university places? This country is appallingly run - just appallingly run - but when the Scottish government
expect us to fund ‘free’ places then make these ‘free’ places unobtainable to students no matter how hard they try or how academically excellent, that’s a shockingly poor system!

It is the nature of taxes anywhere, you might never get access to some services your government funds, you don't get to pick or choose what you pay for.

I don't have access to the article, is it a oneoff anomaly at one course/faculty/uni only that the opposition have highlighted or is there data to show it a widespread issue throughout all the unis/courses?

Widespread. Affects many courses. It’s just a damning indictment of how appallingly this country treats its young people. They are encouraging a brain drain to England with their policy, and when the students see how much less they are taxed in England, and when they remember how unfairly treated they were in Scotland they’ll not be back!

There's plenty of 'average Scottish kids' on university courses across Scotland and indeed at Edinburgh Uni which has always had a reputation for being elitist. Law has always been competitive and the limited spaces available have been allocated to those who traditionally wouldn't get a look in. They're obviously trying hard to shrug that reputation and make themselves accessible to those that are at a disadvantaged due to poverty and inequality. If that was the aim of the policy then it's been a success.

Academically excellent kids from poorer backgrounds now have access to opportunities where doors were previously closed to them - great news!

Plenty of us pay taxes and don't use or access the services that they pay for. For example, I don't need free personal care, I'm still pleased my taxes are paying for those who do. I haven't had a prescription for over 10years, I'm still glad they're free for the people who do need them. My children didn't get 30hours free nursery but I'm happy for the families that can access that now. The list goes on....

In what way we’re this kids unable to access law at Edinburgh university before? If they studied hard enough, they could have got in. I went to a failing high school. Lessons were very disruptive. It wasn’t easy, but I knew if I studied hard enough and got the grades I could do anything. It was in my control. Average Scottish kids wanting to do law at Edinburgh last year had no chance, no matter what they did. It was not in their control. That’s why it is unfair.

Our household paid £8k in taxes more last year to live in Scotland, only to find opportunities open to those south of the border (access a university education in Edinburgh) are not available to us.

Oh, well. I'm sure your children will manage, what with the advantages you've given them materially and educationally throughout their lives.

You’re right. My kids will cope. But my nephew is physically disabled, and is also revising hard. He would prefer to stay at home and go to Edinburgh, but he would also appear to have no chance. Widening access places don’t seem to apply to disabilities.

The point remains - yes we should help those who come from a deprived background, but not to the extent that it removed the chances of all other. Kids should be allowed to access their local university if they want to and get the grades.