Non-deprived Scottish students barred from uni places

[Sorefootouch]

The only Scottish students taken by Edinburgh university last year to study law came from deprived neighbourhoods, regardless of grades. Is this a good thing? If my child wants to go to University of Edinburgh and study law do we have to move to a deprived neighbourhood before applying? Is this fair? My child goes to an average Scottish state school and is predicted to get all A’s at higher.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/students-from-less-deprived-background-have-door-closed-to-university-due-to-snp-funding-approach-3983059

Why do you believe a deprived child of a single disabled parent in Portree doesn’t deserve to go to a RG university?

Why do you believe they do?

No, you go first. Why does a very deprived child in Portree who meets the grades deserve to go to Edinburgh or Glasgow less than a child from a supportive home with above average income and a placing request good school who lives in a priority zone within communiting distance of six alternative universities?

This thread really show the central belt bias that exists in Scotland,

Using SIMD as an indicator of deprivation is not without its faults. You will get areas of social housing particularly in Edinburgh which don't fall within SIMD 1 or 2 so those kids won't get the contextual flag. If one of their parent's has a higher degree, such as an HND they won't even be able to be part of a LEAPS, or equivalent, programme. While you can get students who live in high income areas that are eligible for LEAPS if their parent's don't have a higher degree.

There needs to be a more nuanced approach to this to level the playing field and ensuring equity for all and not disadvantaging kids from working class families, just because their postcode isn't in SIMD 1 or 2.

We do also want to encourage families with higher incomes to live and work in Scotland as they pay the higher taxes needed for all these polices.

Let's not have a race to the bottom.

This thread really shows the level of severe deprivation in the central belt of Scotland.

As to Portree, perhaps their level of deprivation could be increased to the levels of the central belt to ensure the children of single-parent, disabled households in Portree are given the same opportunities of the children of single-parent, disabled households in already severely deprived areas in the central belt?

It's a blunt tool, the severe deprivation flag, and no doubt some well-off parents will 'win' through this even if the win is achieved by cheating their way by pretending their children live with grandparents in those postcodes etc. Utterly scummy behaviour, imo, but I tend to find those of privilege also experience a sense of entitlement that knows no bounds, really.

In the meantime, this blunt tool, is the best option to ensure the maximum number of children from the most severely deprived areas access the best possible uni places.

I'm concluding my input to this thread by categorically confirming: I'm happy for my tax monies to support this long overdue pendulum swing away from the privileged to the disadvantaged.

So if my child is the next Stephen Hawkings, then he deserves to go to a good university. It’s best for the future of Scotland that his talents are used to the fullest extent. But because he’s got no flag, the admissions tutor is going to be unaware that he was in the winning team for the maths Olympiad 2022, because his grades mean nothing, it’s all decided by where he lives. He’s off to queen margaret university to let his brain rot. It’s free though, so he should be so grateful. Thanks SNP, thanks.! But young Tarqiun from Oxfordshire who’s been to Winchester and has been coached all of his life to AAB at a level and has the £9,250 - he’s welcome!

I’m not railing at the fact that poor kids get to uni, I’m railing at the SNP policies needlessly restricting the opportunities available to all Scottish kids. Plough more money in or introduce tuition fees.

ps simd is surely a much worse measure than free school meals?

This thread has been helpful for me to understand the sheer depth of hatred some people harbour towards those they perceive as being better off than themselves.

Thankfully we have enough money to pay English fees so that's probably what we'll do for DS, unless he can get into Aberdeen/Dundee/Strathclyde, so there's your privilege in action.

Not so helpful for the DC with a single parent in a council flat who has the grades and the acumen to get into a well respected Law school, but not the postcode.

It does make a mockery of the whole we're all in together community aspect. Happy for us to pay higher taxes for a common basket of services, and then be excluded from those services based on some poorly managed criteria.

No it shows the higher population density in the central belt. It doesn’t show less deprivation.

It shows that there is less recorded deprivation in less populated areas. I’m sure if you lived in a shed on Rannoch Moor with no electricity this shed would not be recoded as having an SIMD 1 post code.

I agree about the central belt bias. There is plenty of poverty in the Highlands and Islands, it just isn't concentrated in the same way as in the central belt so you don't get the SIMD1 postcodes. In many ways, people who live in poverty who come from rural areas are more disadvantaged as they often not able to access schemes like LEAPS because they live too far from a University. Nor are they able to attend access courses as easily due to travel and accommodation problems. Work experience is also a lot more difficult. If they do get to university then there can be problems with accommodation as they can't stay at home. The reliance on SIMD1 postcodes is very blunt and it would be better if other factors could be taken into account.

A shed without electricity in Rannoch Moor would not be classed as a SIMD1 postcode if the neighbouring properties were all larger and had wealthier people living in them. The SIMD system looks at postcodes as a whole, not individual houses, which is why poverty in the rural areas is often not identified.

Exactly, @applesandpears33 . Postcodes in rural areas cover a much wider area. If you look at the EH16 5 postcode area that covers Prestonfield and most of Liberton. A realtively small area of the city. www.streetlist.co.uk/eh/eh16/eh16-5 1.26 square miles.

The IV21 2 postcode in Wester Ross covers 64.82 square miles.

The rural poor are worse off than city poor. Lack of transport and distance can mean resources like food banks, warm hubs, community centres, college, health centres etc are literally out of reach. Even if they can afford them, mobile phone signals may be dodgy, 4G and 5G non-existent, and broadband very slow. There is no option to commute to university from home. Employment opportunities sparse, poorly paid and often seasonal, and again lack of transport can make it impossible. Delivery costs are much higher. Yet it seems some on this thread just can’t get their heads around the idea that people can be deprived in rural areas.

Some people really struggle to admit that the SNP is getting it wrong.

You don't have to be very rural to be disadvantages with regard to educational opportunities, I live in a village with poor public transport ( in the central belt), if DS1 hadn't been able to pass his test ( not easy due to COVID)and been given an old banger by my brother he would not have been able to attend our local college where he's doing a college/uni degree. Theoretically there are several colleges or unis within a reasonable distance but we can't get to them except by car for at least one stage of the journey.
DS3 is having to live in to study at FE college at the moment, an extra years loan and expenses because we aren't in the city. We aren't disadvantaged by this, just inconvenienced and emptied of purse but I imagine a fair number are.

I was considering how someone who lived rurally could apply for medicine. It appears that it is now very important for anyone who applies for medicine to have work experience but if you live outwith a town and do not have parents who can drive you to and from work experience then you are reliant on public transport, which may be non existent depending on where you live. Yet none of this would be taken into account on an application form.

I agree that it's quite shocking the level of hatred towards people who earn a little bit more than minimum wage and want their children to be treated equally. I live in a very working class area that isn't SIMD1 or 2, child goes to a very standard state school, but because I got a HND at an old polytechnic, now a University, my child is excluded from any contextual offers. My husband left school at 16 for an apprenticeship and no one in his family has ever gone to University. We can't afford tutors or whatever but for some reason we're being regarded as some middle-class family with lots of choices by some posters.

I agree we need to support widening participation but what is happening is excluding other families that are trying to do their best for their children. I hate the way Scotland is becoming.

My son did a half-day workshop session at a central belt uni last term for the subject he is interested in. Central belt students took a half-day off school. My son had to take a full day. Another rural Scottish student had to take three days off and stay overnight for two nights. Travel costs weren’t paid and I think it is safe to assume the central belt students on their half-day incurred considerably less cost.

What is middle class, working class anyway? I hate being put into a class.

On paper, I could be seen as MC. I live in a SIMD 9 postcode, DH and I are degree educated, we work full time, own our house...

but I'm disabled and get disability benfits. I've had periods of unemployment in the past. My parents grew up in poverty (my dad in particular and was homeless in his first years of uni having to live with a friend).

My family haven't had a lfe of privilege. They've had to work damn hard. My mum remembers being so proud to get her first non council house. They had kids late. They saved so hard. I've had to work harder than my peers against awful discrimination. Teachers didn't want to teach me! Did I not deserve a uni place? Does my daughter not?

There's always someone worse off and better off than you.

I contacted the university of Edinburgh admissions team about this matter. I think they have been inundated, but I understand that the result is that they will no longer guarantee places to those SIMD students who apply and meet the lower criteria. This would be welcome news. All potential students ought to have their applications fully assessed on their merits. If you are interested in a particular subject I suggest you contact the school in question to ask for assurances.

I hope the SNP has the guts to properly address the issue, by either taking money from other budgets and ploughing it in to university places so our kids get as much chance of a place as those from England, or brining in tuition fees and allowing the remaining funding to be channelled to those students who need it most.

The thing is you only need your address in one of those post code areas. It isn't sophisticated to go beyond that.
A huge house in an area of deprivation all good.
A high rise flat one street away, doesn't count.

It also only reflects urban poverty. There are huge amounts of rural poverty in Scotland but the criteria mean that to be in SMID 1 it has to be a city.

Raising attainment is all good and well but it should be about improving the grades of intelligent pupils in sink schools who come from deprived homes not fudging the entrance requirements of people in set post codes.

It's almost like admitting that some schools just arent up to the job of education for all.

MC parents will just exploit this by moving house.

The SNP put out a press release today about a 40% drop in EU students at some Scottish universities (and how that demonstrates the need to be independent and magically rejoin immediately).

The bit it doesn't say is that while these students were really great for universities as they are high calibre, each of those places is for a 'home' student (i.e funded by the Scottish tax payer).

And all home students must be considered equally so in very simple terms if you have a student from portree and one from Germany, the best qualified student gets the place. There's no preference for being Scottish because all Scotland and EU students were considered 'home'.

This was never widely understood (and wasn't even intended by the SNP as they didn't realise you can't discriminate between member states when they introduced the policy).

The drop in EU students numbers has eased the pressure on places and ironically without Brexit the issues around shortages would be even more obvious.