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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Are women in Scotland aware of how bad things have got?

457 replies

Leafstamp · 03/02/2022 19:15

I hang out on the Feminism board a lot, and I know not all MNetters care for that section. Which is fine. But I am continually appalled at how bad things are for women in Scotland - compared to England.

For example, this, from Feminism thread:

www.spiked-online.com/2022/02/01/the-thought-police-are-here/

To briefly summarise:

  • Mridul was born male
  • Mridul is legally male with no GRC
  • Mridul is the CEO of Edinburgh Rape crisis
  • Mridul claims women who want female only rape crisis services are bigoted and should 'reframe their trauma'
  • The CEO of a domestic violence charity Nicola Murray stopped referring women to Mridul's rape crisis service due to Mridul's misogyny
  • Mridul reported Nicola Murray to the police for committing a hate crime
  • The police actually visited Nicola Murray to question her thinking

Please can any not-particularly-feminist women share how you feel about this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Leafstamp · 04/02/2022 17:37

[quote Eggsplanation]I've just had a quick look at the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act. As an example, if you give a book which some people would call "anti-trans" to another person, or send someone an "anti-trans" text you could find yourself and your house being searched for said books, the books and eg your mobile can be seized and disposed of (eg burned) on the order of a court, and you can be sentenced to up to 7 years in prison.
www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2021/14/contents[/quote]
Shock

OP posts:
mapleleavesreturn · 04/02/2022 19:11

Exactly whereas hate crimes against women aren't included in the HCB. We're still waiting the legislation that's going to cover us. Not to mention that the first group to have medical treatment withheld due to vaccine status was women trying to access ivf.

Fundamentals, mental health services for children and especially teens are in the toilet, and this should've been the first and primary focus of the Scottish govt during and post pandemic.

shouldistop · 04/02/2022 19:17

@alicesfavouritepen

Sure *@WouldBeGood* unless you are a person who is so repulsed by their own genitalia that it makes them suicidal.

Simple for you but not for everyone.

If I was repulsed by my arm should I have it cut off?

And as pp said, most trans women still have their penis. Some of them are even raping their 'fellow' women in women's prisons with them.

beastlyslumber · 04/02/2022 19:43

[quote crosstalk]@beastlyslumber

I think you are slightly overegging the pudding that you are afraid of going to hospital to be faced by male nurses and male patients. That is nothing new. There are still mixed wards all over the UK for want of staff. I've been treated by some kindly and empathetic male doctors, nurses and surgeons. I don't know if you can request in Scotland not to be treated by a male or have a single sex ward (if it's not ICU). This is obviously different for a rape victim. And if you are found guilty of a "thought crime" are you likely to go to prison? All I'm saying is that there are profound issues in self ID, refuges, rape crisis centres, sports, the use of language to say nothing of data affecting medical and legal statistics, but panic is not the answer.[/quote]
I'm not panicking. I'm listing the things that frighten me about living here with increasingly fewer and fewer rights and a government that is pushing for more authoritarian measures all the time. Women are being pursued for thoughtcrime here, have you not heard? They haven't managed to make a case stick yet, but they will.

beastlyslumber · 04/02/2022 19:47

@Dinosauratemydaffodils

I think you are slightly overegging the pudding that you are afraid of going to hospital to be faced by male nurses and male patients

Depends on her previous experiences surely? I have ptsd as the result of a violent rape over a period of several hours. It happened a long time ago but I'm still dealing with the ripples. It basically ruined my life, it's there all the time waiting to ambush me at inconvenient times and I regularly wish he'd followed through his threat to murder me. Yes I've had therapy, lots of it and I hate myself for that cowardice because when his hands were around my throat I'd have done anything for one more dawn.

As a result of that and my experience with even kind well meaning men triggering me (including on occasion the one I married) I wouldn't want a male Dr or nurse and nor would I stay on a mixed sex ward. Dc2 was meant to be an elective but she had other ideas. They had agreed that she'd be delivered by a team of women but obviously at 3am all bets were off. The relief I felt on meeting all females was so immense as to be undescribable.

I won't be voting SNP or Green whilst they have such contempt for the lived experiences of women like me.

Thank you Dinosaur. I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you.

I would never stay on a mixed sex ward or consent to let a male give me any kind of intimate exam or care. I don't care if other people think that's stupid. It's my right - or at least it used to be.

ResilienceWanker · 04/02/2022 20:11

I've definitely become more aware through the poisonous, transphobic coven of terven educated and intelligent posters on MN. It is worrying, not so much because I expect the worst "what ifs" will actually happen, but just the general overreaching of powers being displayed.

I do find the whole issue very confusing and complex, though. And I also confess I just don't understand the rationale by which people "who are so repulsed by their own genitalia that it makes them suicidal" somehow get to identify into a group with different genitalia. Why is it only genitalia that is a recognised dysmorphia that permits identification into another group? If someone was repulsed by their skin colour, or height, or anything genetically fixed, they wouldn't be able to change it, or identify into a different group while telling existing members of that group that actually, they are more deserving because they've had other struggles to deal with and the existing members are so priviliged... They would, quite rightly be given sympathy, but be told that their body is who they are, their body is great as it is, they can do whatever they want (legally!) with their body, so just learn to accept it and live with it. Why is there even the possibility that sex is the only thing that people feel "wrong" about that can be addressed through NHS treatment, surgery (or not) and societal acceptance of their dysmorphia (or whatever it is)?

And why is it acceptable that women (and presumably lesbians and gay men) are told to accept these new "members" into their category (no double entendre intended), whereas there is no acceptable way or huge rush to self identify into the category (and safe spaces or similar) of BAME people, or disabled people, or old people or any other protected groups? Though, having said that, I have heard of people with disabilities that haven't seemed to have hindered them previously being included on SNP regional party lists shortlists prioritising such disabilities, so maybe it does happen. Obviously people with disabilities have adjustments made to help them, but they can't identify into a non-disabled body, and they don't insist that everyone else has to use the same adjustment (in many cases having had to fight hard to get them in the first place so strongly discouraging it!).

My feeling, though, is that the other groups are seen as "proper minorities", whereas women are just there due to some historical accident and shouldn't have these rights/ safe spaces any more, because they don't need them and don't deserve them. Which I can't put down to anything other than misogyny in society in general, sadly.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 04/02/2022 20:13

@Eggsplanation * if you give a book which some people would call "anti-trans" to another person, or send someone an "anti-trans" text you could find yourself and your house being searched for said books, the books and eg your mobile can be seized and disposed of (eg burned) on the order of a court, and you can be sentenced to up to 7 years in prison.
www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2021/14/contents*

Jesus wept. Are we going to need a brave librarian like Mali did? www.dw.com/en/abdel-kader-haidara-awarded-germanys-2014-africa-prize-for-rescuing-timbuktu-manuscripts/a-17729553

Welliwonder · 04/02/2022 20:37

Great post, resilience

Waitwhat23 · 04/02/2022 20:47

Gwent Police raided Jennifer Swayne's home and removed stickers and an 'anti trans' book after she was arrested for putting up women's rights stickers on lampposts (an example being '3 women a week are killed by men').

She was also denied medication and left to make her way home on her disability scooter at 3.30am.

We are in an era where 'wrongthink' is a reality.

Scianel · 04/02/2022 23:06

I actually feel like we're having some sort of religious compulsion forced upon us.

Disagreement with a belief system is being criminalised.

Rhannion · 05/02/2022 00:57

@alicesfavouritepen

Not always. It would depend wouldn't it on medical advice and their own personal circumstance.

It's certainly not for you or any of the rest of us to decide is it?

It’s certainly up to us what the definition of woman and man is...!
alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 07:13

@Rhannion no it's not up to you to decide the medical treatment of others.

Leafstamp · 05/02/2022 08:01

@Scianel

I actually feel like we're having some sort of religious compulsion forced upon us.

Disagreement with a belief system is being criminalised.

It’s exactly what it is IMO.

If it carries on, it’s only a matter of time before someone brings Police Scotland (or A.N Other) to account under Human Rights Act Article 9 and 10.

OP posts:
WouldBeGood · 05/02/2022 08:10

@PearPickingPorky yes the survey is another shocking example of how the SG is preoccupied with the sex lives of children without any consideration of the consequences, as you’ve described.

Waitwhat23 · 05/02/2022 08:16

As is the repeating of the GRA consultation (and the additional public monies required to do this) because the SG didn't get the answers they wanted the first time.

Waitwhat23 · 05/02/2022 08:18

Not as shocking (obviously) but an example of SG's obsession about gender and sex issues.

LizzieMacQueen · 05/02/2022 09:15

@Waitwhat23 , is that correct that they are repeating that study? God that's awful. I'll write to my local councillor ( not worth writing to my MSP ) if that's the case. He already knows my views on the whole TWAW debate.

Waitwhat23 · 05/02/2022 09:34

They have already repeated it. The first GRA consultation was in 2017. The second GRA consultation was in 2020. It took months for the SG to publish the analysis of the results of the second consultation. It's fairly obvious that the SG intend to push ahead with the reform regardless of concerns raised. I'm sure they're on record as saying that they were elected in part due to their proposals to reform the GRA but many people have refuted this and asked where in campaign materials this was stated. I'll try to find some links/threads.

WouldBeGood · 05/02/2022 09:37

Yes, the repeating of the consultation is very worrying. Why do they want to pursue this policy in the face of continually being told of concerns around it?

Waitwhat23 · 05/02/2022 09:51

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-government-reveals-17000-responses-for-consultation-on-gender-reform-3024246

The introduction to the second consultation (I've quoted in part - it goes on to talk about single sex exemptions) -

'A number of respondents to the previous consultation raised concerns about the implications of legal gender recognition for women.

Concerns included:

• access to women’s safe spaces;
• risk of abuse;
• women’s sports;
• intimate medical care;
• the accuracy of statistical information in areas
such as crime recording or equality
monitoring;
• freedom of speech.

The Scottish Government is of the view that there is lack of evidence that including trans women in women-only services and spaces has negative impacts'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4338752-Scottish-GRA-consultation-2-Analysis-published-finally

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4464161-ehrc-says-no-case-for-gra-reform-re-scottish-gov

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/womens-group-slams-scottish-government-26035791.amp

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-wrong-say-snp-25929807

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/gra-reform-free-vote-not-ruled-out-but-concerns-not-valid-says-nicola-sturgeon-3378260

Spookytooth · 05/02/2022 09:56

The local elections are on the 5th May - I hope Labour start gaining seats (surely they will) and this will scare them into running the country instead of this woke bollox.
Apparently it is English tax payers who will fund Scottish pensions if we get independence - hopefully this will get lots of publicity!

Rhannion · 05/02/2022 10:12

[quote alicesfavouritepen]@Rhannion no it's not up to you to decide the medical treatment of others. [/quote]
I didn’t say it was.

Waitwhat23 · 05/02/2022 10:13

@Spookytooth

The local elections are on the 5th May - I hope Labour start gaining seats (surely they will) and this will scare them into running the country instead of this woke bollox. Apparently it is English tax payers who will fund Scottish pensions if we get independence - hopefully this will get lots of publicity!
Scottish Labour made commitments in its 2017 (and I believe in 2019 also) general election manifesto to reform the GRA.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/row-over-tension-between-womens-and-trans-rights-divides-scottish-labour-1402621

MiladyBerserko · 05/02/2022 10:19

The Scottish government ignored over 16,000 individual responses to the second consultation, instead publishing the results of organisations only, most of which are already captured and many of which the Scottish government fund. Funding in Scotland is only awarded to 'inclusive' organisations and of course 'inclusive' means supporting gender Self Identification.

It's a total stitch up.

Nicola Sturgeon said that the concerns of people who oppose Genderism were 'not valid'.

LizzieMacQueen · 05/02/2022 10:31

Thanks @Waitwhat23 I think it must have been consultation process #2 that I commented on.

The waste of money across both administrations on exercises like this, enquiries into blatant wrongdoings etc. it's appalling. But nothing new I guess.