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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Are women in Scotland aware of how bad things have got?

457 replies

Leafstamp · 03/02/2022 19:15

I hang out on the Feminism board a lot, and I know not all MNetters care for that section. Which is fine. But I am continually appalled at how bad things are for women in Scotland - compared to England.

For example, this, from Feminism thread:

www.spiked-online.com/2022/02/01/the-thought-police-are-here/

To briefly summarise:

  • Mridul was born male
  • Mridul is legally male with no GRC
  • Mridul is the CEO of Edinburgh Rape crisis
  • Mridul claims women who want female only rape crisis services are bigoted and should 'reframe their trauma'
  • The CEO of a domestic violence charity Nicola Murray stopped referring women to Mridul's rape crisis service due to Mridul's misogyny
  • Mridul reported Nicola Murray to the police for committing a hate crime
  • The police actually visited Nicola Murray to question her thinking

Please can any not-particularly-feminist women share how you feel about this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Viviennemary · 05/02/2022 21:08

Being a woman in Scotland is terrifying. Confused This dort of idiotic hyperbole doesn't help anybody.

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 21:12

I think you'd be surprised. Glasgow I find to be tolerant and open and pretty forward thinking across the whole city but these are generalisations either way of course and limited to my own personal experiences. I'm sure even the west end has its fair share of intolerance. I have a great story that sadly is too outing that might challenge that assumption about the OO as well.

Scianel · 05/02/2022 21:13

I think you'd be surprised

I've only lived here for 22 years, so maybe I would be, who knows.

Leafstamp · 05/02/2022 21:13

@alicesfavouritepen

If that poster challenges a trans woman in the toilet (if she can tell in the first place) and tells her she shouldn't be there then I could easily imagine another woman saying 'sorry but you don't speak for all women and I'm happy to have her here'.

Why is it so easy to imagine someone challenging a transwoman but hard for you to imagine someone defending her?

It was the way you put ‘educate’ in quotes, I wasn’t sure what you meant by that.

I see that yes a counter-response is entirely possible. I guess it will then depend partly on who else is around, the establishment in question and how the facility is labelled.

It’s surely not good manners for a trans woman to use facilities marked female or female only?

OP posts:
thenightsky · 05/02/2022 21:17

@Waitwhat23

Quoted from this article - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57103702

'Almost 80% of women prisoners in Scotland have a history of significant head injury - mostly through through domestic abuse. Almost all participants in the study, 95%, reported a history of abuse, with more than half reporting sexual abuse in childhood and 46% reporting sexual abuse in adulthood. A history of alcohol or drug misuse was common, and 92% complained of mental health difficulties, with anxiety and depression the most common'.

These are vulnerable women, locked away for mostly low level crimes being imprisoned with transwomen, many of whom have been convicted of sexual offences against women.

This report -
forwomen.scot/03/08/2021/the-status-of-women-in-scotland-prisons/ found that -

• In 2015, the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists (BAGIS) submitted evidence to the Transgender Equality Inquiry undertaken by the UK Parliament’s Women and Equalities Commitiee explaining why it was naive to suggest that “nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard.”

• Research conducted on publicly available data by the women’s rights group Fair Play For women, and later confirmed by the UK’s Ministry of Justice, showed that 48% of male prisoners who self-identified as women were jailed for sex offences – compared to less than 20% in the general male estate. It seems clear one of two scenarios is in place here: either transgender people commit sexual offences at a higher rate than other men, or male sex offenders take advantage of the self-identifying aspects of the prison’s trans policy, for the reasons outlined by BAGIS above. Whatever the correct scenario, the outcome for female prisoners who have no choice but to share accommodation with these male prisoners is very bleak.

'Hysterical' it might be but I will fight for the rights of these vulnerable women not to be subject to what is essentially state sanctioned punative rape. I find the lack of empathy towards these women utterly chilling.

Fucking hell. That has actually made me cry Sad Those poor, poor vulnerable real women. Fuck.
alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 21:17

I put educate because you talked about speaking to the woman in the context of your granny trying to school the young folk about smoking.

You might not consider that transwoman female but she would and many others would accept her as such. She wouldn't therefore feel she was being unmannerly.

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 21:24

@Scianel

I think you'd be surprised

I've only lived here for 22 years, so maybe I would be, who knows.

Nearly 30 for me and as I said my own view is entirely based on my own experiences. Yours I'm sure are very different.
Eggsplanation · 05/02/2022 22:03

There are 2 issues - people who feel themselves to be trans and men who take advantage while not feeling themselves to be trans. The status quo appears to be that no biologically male person may be questioned in any way when they choose to access a women only space. The assumption must be made that they are trans and have a right (generally only what is seen as a moral right) to be there. It's an abuser's dream scenario.

Whattochoosenow · 05/02/2022 22:24

They are actually- it’s about the rights of the female sex

Whattochoosenow · 05/02/2022 22:25

That was for @alicesfavouritepen and her comment regarding suffragettes

Scianel · 05/02/2022 22:29

The queer category has now expanded so wide that it's become entirely meaningless anyway. As I alluded to previously, the whole thing bears very little resemble indeed to the tiny handful of dysphoric transsexuals that were previously the T community.
Now women's spaces are pretty much the dumping ground for alphabet soup. Men and Non-men, as the Greens would say.

Rhannion · 05/02/2022 22:57

[quote visitingagain]**@Eggsplanation* are you sure the man in the toilets wasn't the cleaner? @Leafstamp* this thread is an utter pile of dog whistle shite. I wish everyone who clutches their pearls over this would have a wee think about what trans people did for years prior to all this fuss. No one was able to transition legally or get surgery without living as whatever gender they identified as for a good length of time. That means, going to toilets, changing rooms, pools etc so WHY is it an issue now that the Scottish Government is trying to bring legislation in line with the rest of the UK and also to add in human rights so that trans rights become a protected characteristic just like women's rights.
Your rights are not something that diminishes anyone else's, it's like having 2 children, you don't love the first one less.
Why does it matter that this happens in Scotland more than other parts of the UK? It's a thinly disguised attack on the SNP again, blah, blah, blah.
The idea of the police rocking up at your door to arrest you for anti trans thought crime is laughable but maybe think about WHY you believe that trans people are such an abomination.
However, if you tweet discriminatory statements about any protected minority, including women, you can expect to be sanctioned by twitter and possibly in law. [/quote]
Full of hyperbole. Dog whistles, pearl clenching, full of cliches... I am surprised you haven’t mentioned bots too. You, and others are attempting to sabotage mumsnet and we can see that. I’m away to watch Fleetwood Mac and drink lots of champagne because I’ve cause to celebrate something tonight. Women Won’t Wheest

Selkiesarereal · 05/02/2022 23:32

Finally caught up on this thread and it was very enlightening to see the poster who seemed keen to derail openly state that they don’t give a shit about women in prison. Must be great coming from such a place of privilege to not care about the most vulnerable in society.

Many women are concerned, and many of the posters on here have been brilliant at educating me and to hopefully a great many more women about the real issues surrounding self id. One of which is safeguarding. We know that most men are not rapists and we know that most trans women just want to live their life. However, single sex spaces are there for a reason as we know that some men will use whatever they can to violate us.

So if we go into a changing room and see someone who to our eyes looks like a man, how do we know that they are the nice safe man or someone who has an ulterior motive? Remember, how if we do go down the route of self id we have no recourse to challenge anyone in our single sex space.

Take for example the WiSpa incident in which a male bodied person chose the womens changing room and proceeded to walk around naked. A woman complained and was called transphobic as how did she know that the person, complete with penis was not a woman. Self Id can lead to all sorts of dubious men doing similar and we have no protection to challenge this. Right now we can.

Now we know that trans women have been coming into our spaces and have in the main respectful of our space as they know that we can challenge and for the most part have had to go through a lengthy process to get to that stage. Self id means that any old man can just declare they are a women and right away into our spaces, no checks and balances.

And back to the WiSpa incident, the person with a penis, turns out that they are a known sec offender.

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 23:41

Full of hyperbole. Dog whistles, pearl clenching, full of cliches... I am surprised you haven’t mentioned bots too. You, and others are attempting to sabotage mumsnet and we can see that. I’m away to watch Fleetwood Mac and drink lots of champagne because I’ve cause to celebrate something tonight. Women Won’t Wheest

It's a real shame to resort to shutting down those who aren't fully on board with your own opinion as saboteurs. This conversation will never progress if this is how its participants are treated. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Selkiesarereal · 05/02/2022 23:53

Oh and a couple of other things to point out to those who are only coming across this; trans women continue to demonstrate male offending patterns after transitioning and the majority retain their penis.

SomePosters · 06/02/2022 00:13

@ElephantOfRisk

I'd reject that MN is thought of as anti trans. It's really only generally allowed to be against some of the actions taken in support of trans lobby groups and the like in the correct section of the Feminist boards.
Trust me it’s widely known

I’ve left over it several times because it makes me feel physically sick to see the vitriol and hate reporting it and seeing it stand

I keep coming back for the parenting support, the special needs birds helped me through some rough stuff but it’s all tainted now

Rhannion · 06/02/2022 00:38

@alicesfavouritepen

Full of hyperbole. Dog whistles, pearl clenching, full of cliches... I am surprised you haven’t mentioned bots too. You, and others are attempting to sabotage mumsnet and we can see that. I’m away to watch Fleetwood Mac and drink lots of champagne because I’ve cause to celebrate something tonight. Women Won’t Wheest

It's a real shame to resort to shutting down those who aren't fully on board with your own opinion as saboteurs. This conversation will never progress if this is how its participants are treated. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m not resorting to anything, you must think I’ve got a lot of power to close down any thread. 😀 We all know what’s afoot , a lot of us have seen the stuff on Twitter etc, however I, for one , am not going to engage with anyone who doesn’t respect women and their right to say NO.
DomesticatedZombie · 06/02/2022 08:05

it makes me feel physically sick to see the vitriol and hate

Wow. Where? Can you point any out?

Blessex · 06/02/2022 08:50

I have just watched this video. If we don’t get a grip on this issue, affirming it and being kind then we are going to wake up one day as adults and think - how the hell did we let our kids down. Denying reality is DAMAGING.

Blessex · 06/02/2022 08:53

The really scary thing is with other trends such as anorexia - the adults knew it was dangerous and we could talk about it. With gender ideology, seemingly intelligent adults are affirming it. We are denying vulnerable teachers reality. If people really can’t see the harm in this and especially after watching the video I just posted then honestly I hold my head in my hands.

Blessex · 06/02/2022 08:53

*teenagers not teachers!

Scianel · 06/02/2022 09:12

Blessex yes that's it. I've seen way too many upsetting pictures of girls, some too young to even get a tattoo, with their healthy breasts removed Sad
Many of these girls are autistic, anorexic, victims of CSA... again some of the most vulnerable people in our society and they are being hugely, catastrophically let down by this "affirmation". It's the furthest thing from kind that I can imagine.

Blessex · 06/02/2022 09:16

Me too @scianel. I know so many distressed mums of girls who are saying they are transgender recently. And when I roll me eyes and direct them to videos like this they almost break down in tears and say I am the first person not to affirm it all. Where on earth have our collective minds gone? Again watch the video I posted and then anyone who thinks they are being open and kind give heads a wobble.

Waitwhat23 · 06/02/2022 09:23

Here's the thing about the 'anti trans' label.

You may view the statement 'human beings cannot change sex' as transphobic. But it's simple fact. You cannot force people to believe something they know not to be true, much as it has been tried through the chilling effect, no debate, no platforming and women being forced out of employment (Maya Forstater as an example).

You may view the statement 'women need single sex spaces, services and categories' as transphobic. I would strongly refute that as woman (particularly vulnerable women) need these for safety, dignity and fairness. The needs and rights of different groups need to carefully balanced but even acknowledging this is seen as transphobic. We've seen posters on this thread argue that there should be no such thing as single sex spaces, in any circumstances. Even in the case of women who are traumatised or in prison or vulnerable.

'Anti trans' is a label often thrown around when the discussion is about woman's rights. So does that mean that pro trans = anti woman? I don't believe it does as outside of the extremes of particularly 'militant' TRA's, most people realise that there needs to be a balance of needs. It's just unfortunate that extreme anti woman views have been allowed to flourish unabated and currently have such power in Scotland.

DomesticatedZombie · 06/02/2022 09:28

Children are being taught that they can change sex, that there are more than two sexes and that sex is a spectrum.

This is all based on the conflation and confusion of the terms 'sex' and 'gender'. The law in Scotland uses the two terms interchangeably. Of course they have completely different and distinct meanings.

I expect the GRA reform to be pushed through in the very near future. Scotland then risks being taken to court by Westminster for undermining the Equality Act.

If you are concerned about these issues it is a good time to write to your MP and MSPs. Before the issue is forced through.