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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Are women in Scotland aware of how bad things have got?

457 replies

Leafstamp · 03/02/2022 19:15

I hang out on the Feminism board a lot, and I know not all MNetters care for that section. Which is fine. But I am continually appalled at how bad things are for women in Scotland - compared to England.

For example, this, from Feminism thread:

www.spiked-online.com/2022/02/01/the-thought-police-are-here/

To briefly summarise:

  • Mridul was born male
  • Mridul is legally male with no GRC
  • Mridul is the CEO of Edinburgh Rape crisis
  • Mridul claims women who want female only rape crisis services are bigoted and should 'reframe their trauma'
  • The CEO of a domestic violence charity Nicola Murray stopped referring women to Mridul's rape crisis service due to Mridul's misogyny
  • Mridul reported Nicola Murray to the police for committing a hate crime
  • The police actually visited Nicola Murray to question her thinking

Please can any not-particularly-feminist women share how you feel about this?

OP posts:
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7
Eggsplanation · 05/02/2022 19:15

[quote visitingagain]@Rheopecticfluid what changes to women's rights do you have in mind? Women retain all their rights. Trans people have additional rights in law.[/quote]
In addition to the attack on women and girl only spaces, plenty of people are seeking to remove the concept of sex altogether, and replace it with the concept of gender. Including removing women's legal right not be discriminated against on the grounds of their sex.

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 19:26

Human beings are a dimorphic species and sex is immutable. This isn't a value judgement or denying that transpeople exist. Just simple fact. Transwoman cannot access single sex female spaces because their sex is male. That's not transphobic. It's reality. If you feel that statement is transphobic, then please report it to MNHQ, who take actual transphobia very seriously.

Okay fair enough. Transwomen can access female only spaces though. They have for years. What exactly do you think is going to happen here? This is what confuses me most about the whole MN trans thing. Why is everyone so obsessed with the biological truth and completely ignorant of our social reality?

Rheopecticfluid · 05/02/2022 19:33

Why is everyone so obsessed with the biological truth and completely ignorant of our social reality

The reality is that men, no matter how they identify, are responsible for the majority of sexual violence towards women. That's why we have sex segregated space. No it's not all men. No it's not all transwomen. But seeing as it's not possible to tell who is a risk and who is not, then sex segregation largely reduces that risk. Evidence already shows women are at fair greater risk of harm from born males, in mixed sex space such as changing rooms etc.

ResilienceWanker · 05/02/2022 19:41

Flowers eggsplanation

I think for me I'm shocked not so much by the proposals to make it easier to get a GRC and so on... of course transpeople will campaign for that, and that is their right to do so. Also increasing understanding and acceptance of non-gender-conforming people, and ensuring they aren't discriminated against or made unsafe by how society addresses their needs. That is all fine and dandy. Obviously as pp have said TW have "always" used female facilities (and women have either been unaware, or noticed and campaigned to prevent it, or noticed and not been very bothered) and other than having people outside changing rooms or wherever checking "bits" as people enter, there's not really any way of preventing that - nor would we necessarily want to in relatively low risk environments. The equality act permits exceptions, but doesn't require them, so I suppose overall its a commercial decision how companies address the issue of TW using female facilities (or TM male facilities). Discrimination is a concern, but presumably as long as they can show they aren't treating TW less favourably than any other man, they will be covered?

In practice, i'd hope social protocols and not wanting to rock the boat would kick in with most people... If a man in a female space (or indeed a woman!) is causing trouble, there should be procedures in place to eject/arrest them, regardless how they "present".

The thing that concerns me is how in Scotland (more so than elsewhere in the UK from what I've seen) the state seems to be jumping in to decide how discrimination (or transphobia) presents itself. So, as in the OPs example, the mere suggestion that single sex rape counselling is a good and important thing, and a rape counselling service that doesn't provide that isn't meeting the requirements of many women for such a service. That seems to me inherently sensible and not at all transphobic. Yet it somehow merits a visit from the police for being a potential hate crime - ie transphobia? Even though it doesn't (on the face of it) mention trans people at all, and doesn't imply anything other than that transwomen are not biologically women. Which isn't a discriminatory statement - it is recognised in the equality act, surely, because of the various exemptions allowed. So I'm not sure how something like that has suddenly become a "transphobic" statement. There is no discrimination against transpeople, and no inferior treatment to acknowledge they are a separate "class" so need separate treatment. Just because some may not accept that as what they would prefer, doesn't make it discriminatory. Yet somehow women (a protected characteristic through sex) claiming that they would prefer not to share single sex facilities with people not of the same sex is a hate crime, whereas transpeople (a protected characteristic through gender reassignment) saying they DO want to share facilities with people not of the same sex is not a hate crime.

Whattochoosenow · 05/02/2022 19:42

@alicesfavouritepen look up autogynophilia and perhaps then you’ll understand why sex segregated places are important.

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 19:44

@Rheopecticfluid so how do you plan on making that happen? Sport can be policed because there is generally medical testing. So fair enough. Prisons I suppose you could as well. How you planning on policing the other single sex spaces? How you planning on diallingback the fact we've shared these spaces with trans women for years.

You can keep saying it's unacceptable all you like and you are of course entitled to that opinion but how do you actually think that this should be dealt with? Testicle check at the door of the toilets?

Why are you cherry picking 'realities' rather than dealing with the situation as it actually is?

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 19:46

I've looked it up thanks. I don't generally form all of my opinions based on a small minority of weirdos and fetishists. Life would be pretty difficult if I did that.

Waitwhat23 · 05/02/2022 19:52

OK. Let's talk social reality. Instead of the focus being on toilets and changing rooms, why don't I focus on prisons as an example of a single sex space -

In Scotland, transwomen can be placed in in the female prison estate by self identifying as transgender. No need for a GRC. Many of these prisoners have been convicted of sex offences against women.

James Morton, of the Scottish Trans Alliance, was an author of the Scottish Prisons Policy. He is quoted as saying -

‘We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

So essentially a social experiment conducted on vulnerable women.

There was a recent MOJ judicial review (which concerned English prisons) brought by a female prisoner raped in prison by a transwoman. The judicial review concluded that women are at risk of abuse and fear from the policy of placing transwomen in the female estate but in the end, it was more important that the transwomen in question be allowed to mix with women.

Here are various articles addressing the situation -

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/transgender-debate-in-scotland-why-prisons-should-be-single-sex-kenny-macaskill-msp-347818

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-sex-offenders-are-moved-into-womens-jails-wmfb9k5n0

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/opaque-and-overdue-scottish-prison-service-trans-prisoner-policy-review

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

Now, rape crisis services, which I have mentioned several times on this thread. Some women need single sex services because of various reasons, including trauma response. If a transwoman attends the service, it becomes a mixed sex service. What does the woman who needs a single sex service do? Where is the concern for her needs?

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 20:06

As I said in my post I could see a situation where you could police transgender women in prisons. In Scotland, and indeed in England and Wales, however, they don't police it and transgender women are housed in female prisons.

Do you honestly think they will dial that back? Is that the aim from posters here? I just don't think it's realistic.

I think there is a huge cultural shift in terms of gender, particularly amongst the young, and there's a hysterical (I'm aware of the negative connotations of the word but can't think of another suitable phrase) to shove something back in the box that's just not going to fit.

Whattochoosenow · 05/02/2022 20:08

@alicesfavouritepen it’s about power and control. The legislation is so poor that technically men can identify as female on a weekend and male during the week. It’s about them using the law to gain control.
Trans women in prison will apparently often become women at the start of their sentence and men on their release. Why is that?

Whattochoosenow · 05/02/2022 20:10

I’m definitely not hysterical. The very root of the word hysterical comes from the Greek for uterus, because that’s how women were often seen. They were put into institutions for being hysterical.
I am quite angry about it though.

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 20:13

I'm aware of the etymology of the word which is why I apologised for using it. Maybe you're not personally but the general reaction on MN is. In my opinion.

Whattochoosenow · 05/02/2022 20:16

The suffragettes were viewed as hysterical by many men. Without them you wouldn’t have the ability to vote.

Leafstamp · 05/02/2022 20:30

@alicesfavouritepen

As I said in my post I could see a situation where you could police transgender women in prisons. In Scotland, and indeed in England and Wales, however, they don't police it and transgender women are housed in female prisons.

Do you honestly think they will dial that back? Is that the aim from posters here? I just don't think it's realistic.

I think there is a huge cultural shift in terms of gender, particularly amongst the young, and there's a hysterical (I'm aware of the negative connotations of the word but can't think of another suitable phrase) to shove something back in the box that's just not going to fit.

Yes I do think there’s a chance they will dial it back and yes that is my aim.

In terms of ‘policing’ who uses toilets etc, I see this as like other laws and rules that are not particularly policed but that decent people just abide by, and when they are broken people speak up about it and are backed up by the other decent members of the public around them. See for example inconsiderate/illegal parking, littering.

Obviously it will be up to individuals to speak up, and it saddens me that women may not feel they can speak up.

But if my elderly granny can have a word with teenage boys smoking and tell them it’s bad for their health (which she did, god rest her soul) then I sure as hell will be having a word with any men and trans women who try to use women’s spaces.

I don’t actually see why trans women want to use facilities they are not welcome in….but I do have some theories about why they they do so anyway.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 05/02/2022 20:31

Quoted from this article - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57103702

'Almost 80% of women prisoners in Scotland have a history of significant head injury - mostly through through domestic abuse. Almost all participants in the study, 95%, reported a history of abuse, with more than half reporting sexual abuse in childhood and 46% reporting sexual abuse in adulthood. A history of alcohol or drug misuse was common, and 92% complained of mental health difficulties, with anxiety and depression the most common'.

These are vulnerable women, locked away for mostly low level crimes being imprisoned with transwomen, many of whom have been convicted of sexual offences against women.

This report -
forwomen.scot/03/08/2021/the-status-of-women-in-scotland-prisons/ found that -

• In 2015, the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists (BAGIS) submitted evidence to the Transgender Equality Inquiry undertaken by the UK Parliament’s Women and Equalities Commitiee explaining why it was naive to suggest that “nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard.”

• Research conducted on publicly available data by the women’s rights group Fair Play For women, and later confirmed by the UK’s Ministry of Justice, showed that 48% of male prisoners who self-identified as women were jailed for sex offences – compared to less than 20% in the general male estate. It seems clear one of two scenarios is in place here: either transgender people commit sexual offences at a higher rate than other men, or male sex offenders take advantage of the self-identifying aspects of the prison’s trans policy, for the reasons outlined by BAGIS above. Whatever the correct scenario, the outcome for female prisoners who have no choice but to share accommodation with these male prisoners is very bleak.

'Hysterical' it might be but I will fight for the rights of these vulnerable women not to be subject to what is essentially state sanctioned punative rape. I find the lack of empathy towards these women utterly chilling.

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 20:43

@Whattochoosenow

The suffragettes were viewed as hysterical by many men. Without them you wouldn’t have the ability to vote.
I'm not really in need of your very simple introduction to feminism thanks. The situations aren't even remotely the same.
alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 20:49

don’t actually see why trans women want to use facilities they are not welcome in….but I do have some theories about why they they do so anyway.

Not welcome from you maybe. You might well find if you do that another female may well step in and attempt to 'educate' you.

I do think that this comment is very telling. Clearly you think that transwomen are perverts or at least that's what your last few words suggest. I think this in some ways explains the heightened emotion and fury that runs through many of these posts. I work with a few young transpeople and so tend to get them in my head when we have these discussions. Others clearly get the 'suck my lady dick' types that hide behind cartoon avatars on Twitter. I wonder if that's part of the problem. I'm not fully on board with it. I think that a man being in charge of a rape crisis centre is a disgrace but I'm certainly not going to let that mean that I'm so dismissive of individual people and their individual situations.

It's interesting as well that you think it can be dialled back. Sometimes I think it can be and sometimes I don't. I think young people are very very accepting of trans and non binary situations.

Scianel · 05/02/2022 20:55

I do think this will be rolled back. In fact I think the current general scenario of extreme wokery, for want of a better term, is going to lead to one hell of a future backlash.

Leafstamp · 05/02/2022 20:58

Nah, I think lots of young people think it’s a load of bollocks quite frankly.

I mean, they’re perfectly tolerant of people expressing themselves with their clothes and hair and names - like any decent person is - but young people know people can’t change sex as much as old people do.

OP posts:
Leafstamp · 05/02/2022 20:59

You might well find if you do that another female may well step in and attempt to 'educate' you.

Genuine question, what do you think that would look/sound like?

OP posts:
Scianel · 05/02/2022 21:01

You might well find if you do that another female may well step in and attempt to 'educate' you

In parts of Glasgow that would have quite an interesting outcome.

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 21:02

If that poster challenges a trans woman in the toilet (if she can tell in the first place) and tells her she shouldn't be there then I could easily imagine another woman saying 'sorry but you don't speak for all women and I'm happy to have her here'.

Why is it so easy to imagine someone challenging a transwoman but hard for you to imagine someone defending her?

alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 21:03

@Scianel

You might well find if you do that another female may well step in and attempt to 'educate' you

In parts of Glasgow that would have quite an interesting outcome.

Glasgow is generally pretty tolerant in my experience.
alicesfavouritepen · 05/02/2022 21:03

And what I mean by that is I don't think many would stand by and let a trans woman be berated in a toilet.

Scianel · 05/02/2022 21:06

Glasgow is generally pretty tolerant in my experience

The West End, certainly. But when there's an Orange march for instance, "tolerant" probably isn't the first term that springs to mind. Or an Old Firm match.

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