Guilt Free Railing 18

[WouldBeGood]

Will it ever end?

That's what I'm struggling with, even if you were the most zealous snp supporter, why would you want them to be able to push through legislation without due scrutiny. Consultations do not amount to proper legislative scrutiny by experts.

And surely, looking at the mistakes made with the Salmond debacle, wouldn't that make you have a few qualms about how Scottish government works?

I'm massively a bit aghast at recent developments.

Surely, surely no-one will look at this and think lets vote for independence and get more of it, lets hand them absolute power?

Completely agree @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us When the Parliament was established it was designed in a way that was supposed to mean no-one would have the kind of control the SNP now have.

I am furious that the media lets them off with so much, that some people think being better than Boris is good enough, and that for some, anything is a price worth paying for independence. A number of colleagues of mine are always saying they agree SNP terrible on health, education etc. but that they will carry on voting for them until we have independence then vote for someone else. It makes me weep.

It’s worse than that though; unlike at WM where backbenchers can make a noise and vote against their own party, SNP MPs and MSPs must tow the line and vote as instructed. If you think about it, that’s dictatorship but stealth. But nobody actually seems to care.

Exactly @mapleleavesreturn. I was actually shocked to learn that the crown office is not fully independent in Scotland, quite apart from all the other dodgy dealings and the fact that legislation appeared to be brought in retrospectively specifically to target Salmond. I'm in no way a fan of his, but the fact that they were able to do this (and the Scottish civil service was totally complicit rather than being independent) sets a dangerous precedent. I actually think a lot of SNP supporters are deeply uncomfortable with the current situation but are putting up with the SNP in the hope of achieving independence rather than actively supporting them. It does make you question what kind of independent Scotland they think they'll get if they were to achieve it, or why the SNP would suddenly become less authoritarian once the last checks and balances (UK law) were removed. They're more likely to just vote themselves even more powers (who's going to stop them?), perhaps to control the press more, in order to keep themselves in power.

Absolutely. The strategy that you vote for them now to get independence and then vote them out, is starting to look like quite a risky one.

I used to be pro indy as I wanted to rejoin the EU but recent events have actually put me off that as well.

Good morning railers. How depressing indeed. At the time of the Salmond thing I was shocked to discover how closely linked the government and judiciary are. I thought it was a given that the government would have no say in appointments and wouldn't be tried by their employees.

And I so agree about the snp 'protections' described as a judgement call with no evidence. It should go without saying that restrictions on freedom should have to be justified by very strong evidence. Reinstating freedoms should not need such strong justification. In the long term we'll have voters who are used to having liberties taken away. It's scary.

@mapleleavesreturn How are you doing? I hope you're not too symptomatic.

In the event of a majority vote for independence in a legal referendum, no way would the SNP give up power. Why would they, after working for it for so very long?

Maybe a stupid Q, but why is there no dissent from SNP backbenchers? Is it just a cultural SNP thing?

Yes, look at what happened with brexit, the snp would be untouchable whilst pushing through indy and based on their poor legislative record, what a mad business that legislation would be.

Over what horizon would this new socialist utopia happen? 20 years? When would the SNP stop being a party built around a strong leader?

I'm ok, I've had a rough few days but fingers crossed I'm turning a corner!

Exactly @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us -
the SNP as the executive have no incentive to fix any of the problems with Scottish govt that serve them, and the idea that they wouldn't gerrymander independence to suit them doesn't bear a close study of political history.

I admit to being quite dismayed at seeing the riot troops attack crowds protecting lockdown in the EU. I don't think I'll forget that footage of the young woman in her early 20s being water cannoned into smacking her head against concrete, and it has happened several times.

Right I must go back to bed and stop rambling.

@mibbelucieachwell

Maybe a stupid Q, but why is there no dissent from SNP backbenchers? Is it just a cultural SNP thing?

Definitely an SNP thing, they know if they revolt, stand up against the leadership life will become difficult for them.

MSPs are in the main ordinary people with mortgages and bills to pay. Might just be my guess but a lot of Tory MPs are people with money behind them - they don't need to worry about the mortgage not getting paid so in a slightly different position to stand up against the Boss.

The biggest issue in both Scotland and WM is the lack of a strong Labour Party. Corbyn was useless and the mess they've go into over what is a woman means they are unelectable to a huge number of voters.

I think it’s specifically in the SNP code that public dissent is not permitted?

Seemingly, Scottish Government consultation- 85% opposed to school closure powers, 86% opposed to wider lockdown powers.

Not that it will be acknowledged or respected by the Holyrood pseudo power gang. Depressing stuff. Slight saving grace could be Boris is replaced by someone who’ll remind them of the devolution boundaries and make them more accountable stop them hiding information with injunctions and the like. We can only hope.

I've also been genuinely shocked at the authoritarian measures taken by a lot of EU countries during COVID, including very heavy handed policing and mandatory vaccination (using vaccines that don't even stop spread!). A lot of it seems to be about saving political face rather than actually being based in science as well. I'm not surprised there have been been regular large demonstrations all across Europe about them (bit more surprised they weren't more widely reported). It's certainly not the image of the EU that I had, and makes you think that maybe the people warning about the EU not being so fluffy had a point after all.

I'm pretty sure you are right on the SNP code @WouldBeGood. Overall, there's a real lack of talent in the Scottish Parliament. No real heavyweights. Looking at Labour - there's no Gordon Brown, Robin Cook, Donald Dewar etc. whatever your views on their political colours, they were strong parliamentarians. Nicola is a good politician, but she doesn't respond well under pressure and scrutiny and she's simply not challenged effectively enough imo.

@OnceUponAWhine

Seemingly, Scottish Government consultation- 85% opposed to school closure powers, 86% opposed to wider lockdown powers.

Not that it will be acknowledged or respected by the Holyrood pseudo power gang. Depressing stuff. Slight saving grace could be Boris is replaced by someone who’ll remind them of the devolution boundaries and make them more accountable stop them hiding information with injunctions and the like. We can only hope.

So basically it's thanks for the review but we will do whatever we like.......and yet its only WM who are the big bad wolf......

It's certainly not the image of the EU that I had, and makes you think that maybe the people warning about the EU not being so fluffy had a point after all

That's been me as well. I've often felt that the only thing protecting us overall has been a handful of bolshie Tory backbenchers and this has been so confusing as these were the people I've thought for years were completely opposed in viewpoint and values to everything I believed in.

Yes, @Scianel, it’s disconcerting!

The "no public dissent" thing is indeed weird. It's been that way for ages, and seems to be viewed as a good thing by many! (And parties that can't "keep their ranks under control" are portrayed as weak and divided). For a minority party it almost makes sense in terms of voting and so on, but the SNP is now so big, and as the SG it is just undemocratic to allow no dissent (or be treated like eg Joanna Cherry for daring to step out of line).

So there are constituents with MSPs/ MPs who effectively aren't allowed to campaign on locally important issues because they happen to touch on areas of policy their party is opposed to or supports. They seem to have forgotten that in our democracy we don't vote for a political party but for an individual to represent us (apart from for list MSPs) and they must be free to do that, even if it means going against party "thinking" where it matters.

Other parties seem to manage it... there is a rich history of rebellion among the tories and Labour, and that can hold back the worst excesses of parties even with a strong majority. Boris only got his "plan B" through because Labour supported it, and he's got an 80something ish majority...so had it been a policy opposed by Labour too, he could well have been in trouble. Though I think in general the tories are better at "coming together" under crisis for "critical" votes/ VONC than more left wing parties - and it may be that the rebels only did so because they knew it wouldn't actually result in a government defeat. But it does show a variety of opinions in one party, which can be enough to control even a relatively gung ho government..

I know. Very disconcerting. Libertarianism used to be associated with mad gun toting Americans now it's an accepted strand of the Conservative party and I find I'm thankful for their anti restrictions stance.

Just in case your blood wasn't already boiling a FOI request has revealed that the SG has spent an estimated 700k in civil servants to prepare a prospectus to try and convince us to vote for independence. The exact figures aren't known as they refused to reveal it, but they have appointed a team of 11 senior civil servants and the journalists have done some maths based on average salaries for those grades. It's reasonable to assume this ball park figure is correct and at least half a million is being spent. Leaving aside whether it is an appropriate use of tax payers money given all the other services that are being cut (like the council services of a few posts ago), let's not forget that at this point it is not actually know whether the Scottish Parliament has the legal competency to hold another referendum. This is clearly a constitutional matter, and rulings thus far suggest it probably hasn't, and according to an interview on the Nine last night Scotland's law officers haven't actually confirmed that the SG has the competency to put forward their much reported referendum bill. It is therefore likely that this very expensive 'prospectus' will be a white elephant, as it is more likely than not that the SG is not able to hold another referendum legally anyway.

My local MSP won't even reply to constituents @ResilienceWanker, he is well known for it. His staff write letters in their own names and are quite upfront that the MSP won't be reading or replying to correspondence. It's utterly shameful. They're really just fodder. I know that your average MSP reply is often drafted by their team, but it's usually in MSPs name and wording agreed etc.

Completely agree that other parties manage to have a whip system that allows for a bit of rebellion, disagreement at a local level etc. it's a good thing. Command and control is never good for all.

That's really bad whatwould. As you say, everyone knows they're busy and delegate lots to their offices, but they should at least discuss casework, be passed sample correspondence, come up with template letters on certain local issues and so on. Not just say "ah, I'm not looking at that" and have done...

I've emailed my MP and MSPs for various things over the past 5 or 6 years (I never used to! I think I've become radicalised...) and although I've had various quality and speed of response they have all at least nominally replied, either under their own names or the staff member claims the MSP has instructed that a particular response is given... Interestingly though (and this probably narrows me down to a small number of streets in Scotland ) I haven't had an SNP MP or MSP in that time which may explain it...

Mind you, DH wrote to JS and got an answer to a question he didn't ask, and DS wrote to NS (when he was 7...using his best handwriting and everything. Something about polar bears. I can't say I was too happy about it, but he insisted) and didn't get a response at all. So the Wanker family's experience with communication with the SNP hasn't been great.