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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Guilt Free Railing 10

993 replies

WouldBeGood · 01/08/2021 23:04

Is the end nigh?

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Mistressiggi · 15/08/2021 11:22

I think they are assessed in SATs. That seems to be a whole year of primary spent preparing for those.
They seem very much at the whim of the latest education minister, I suppose pretty much like up here.
I know they have SPAG in marking schemes so even if you're sitting History, for example, there are marks for spelling, punctuation and grammar. Just a very different way of assessing. Personally the last 18 months have provided more than enough change for me, I'm not sure I could take any massive overhauls on top of that!

forfucksakenett · 15/08/2021 11:25

@Mistressiggi

I think they are assessed in SATs. That seems to be a whole year of primary spent preparing for those. They seem very much at the whim of the latest education minister, I suppose pretty much like up here. I know they have SPAG in marking schemes so even if you're sitting History, for example, there are marks for spelling, punctuation and grammar. Just a very different way of assessing. Personally the last 18 months have provided more than enough change for me, I'm not sure I could take any massive overhauls on top of that!
Must be horrific for kids with ASN. How demoralising.
TheGenealogist · 15/08/2021 11:27

I would be completely against testing at the Primary School level.

If we are to shift away from an exam based system, then we need a North American type system of regular class testing in each subject, giving a grade point average.

But they also have college-entry exams.

forfucksakenett · 15/08/2021 11:29

We will never shift from an exam system. Not in my lifetime. Exams have their place. Your success shouldn't just rest on one though.

Groovee · 15/08/2021 11:29

I've not done well in Exams. The pressure gets too much. Yet my NC then HNC was continuous assessment and I thrived in that environment. Ds is similar. He's thrived at college and continuous assessment. Dd's masters in Education course is all continuous assessment.

I am a December birthday and I think both dh and I would have benefitted from being deferred. My October born child didn't need it but is a very different child from his sister. But he said it sucked to be 17 for so long if things had been normal.

riverrunning · 15/08/2021 11:30

There are a lot of other reading schemes - ladybird, usborne, songbirds, National geographic first readers and even more than that.

Choice has improved vastly in first readers in the last 5 years

forfucksakenett · 15/08/2021 11:32

@Groovee

I've not done well in Exams. The pressure gets too much. Yet my NC then HNC was continuous assessment and I thrived in that environment. Ds is similar. He's thrived at college and continuous assessment. Dd's masters in Education course is all continuous assessment.

I am a December birthday and I think both dh and I would have benefitted from being deferred. My October born child didn't need it but is a very different child from his sister. But he said it sucked to be 17 for so long if things had been normal.

It's a fairer and more realistic way to be assessed.
riverrunning · 15/08/2021 11:33

I think it obvious a combination of exams and continuous assessment options Wilks work for more - just like school start different approaches suit different people.

And some jobs do rely hugely on remembered knowledge.

WouldBeGood · 15/08/2021 11:34

I was the opposite and was good at exams. The thought of continuous assessment would fill me with dread! But I know it’s really a much better system.

What they do do in schools now is these presentations, which would be terrifying to me, but is really useful as pretty much every job now requires some kind of presentation at interview. I’m glad I’m old!

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Lockdownbear · 15/08/2021 11:37

@riverrunning the choice might have improved, but I doubt the school will have bought new books.
I bought Songbirds & Project X for DS but they weren't issued by school so DS wouldn't look at them.

Death by Kipper - how do teachers cope with them?

I remember coming across one with the moral of the story was don't destroy telephone boxes, I don't even know where to find a phone box.
Even DS asked - why don't they go to a different shop or someone to use a mobile.

forfucksakenett · 15/08/2021 11:39

@riverrunning

I think it obvious a combination of exams and continuous assessment options Wilks work for more - just like school start different approaches suit different people.

And some jobs do rely hugely on remembered knowledge.

Some jobs do require recall yes but do many require you not to be able to look information up as you do it?

Surgeons maybe. Lawyers maybe another one (when in court I mean). Lots of professionals can and do look up information in the moment. I was at the GP once (very experienced and great) and he didn't know something and so quite rightly looked it up.

We expect too much of our young people. It's not good for critical thinking either. I had a pretty good memory but didn't always really understand what I memorised.

WouldBeGood · 15/08/2021 11:40

DS was spared chip et al, thank fuck.

DD would get the same one home for days and days: I once wrote in the diary, “Please! No more Spots!!”

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WouldBeGood · 15/08/2021 11:44

The tiers thread has a really helpful post on it from The Times saying a return to exams this year, with some assessments and back up work in case of absence. Worth a look

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ssd · 15/08/2021 11:45

Ds said at his school they just coached them for exams. They didn't learn stuff needed in the real world, it was all about staying at the top of the league tables.

riverrunning · 15/08/2021 11:51

I don't think a GP looking up the old drug proves that doctors don't rely on huge amounts of remembered knowledge.

It's a shame if the book selection hasn't improved when there is so much more out there. Most picture books for example can be re read once the basic phonics are learned.

forfucksakenett · 15/08/2021 11:54

@riverrunning

I don't think a GP looking up the old drug proves that doctors don't rely on huge amounts of remembered knowledge.

It's a shame if the book selection hasn't improved when there is so much more out there. Most picture books for example can be re read once the basic phonics are learned.

Of course not and I'm not suggesting that remembered knowledge isn't important but they have that safety net. They know a lot but they don't have the constant pressure of thinking they must remember everything. They know what they know and have the skills to find out what they don't.
ResilienceWanker · 15/08/2021 11:58

Interesting chat! I think a lot of things in the Scottish system are good - especially the flexibility on entry, and automatically focusing on a wider range of subjects post 16. However, I thought the "new" AS/ A level system was designed to do that down south too - so you could start doing 4 or 5 AS's, then drop one or two and focus on the A levels in "upper 6th" or whatever it's called now, but would still have the qualification from the single year of AS study. As I understand, highers are basically equivalent in subject matter to an AS, and Advanced highers go a bit beyond A level (according to DH who teaches in uni). So Scottish undergrads with only highers would go into first year, those with AH (most of them in his department) can choose first or second, but most do first, and coast a bit, and those with A levels usually second, just because of the extra cost (plus tuition fees for those coming from England).

I went through the English system, and I have to say I struggle to understand the Scottish one - though I haven't really been through it with DS yet! When I did GCSEs/ A levels in the dark ages, there was a bit more flexibility than some are implying... for example, I did GCSE English in y10 (s3?) which was 100% coursework, then an AS in EngLit alongside the rest of my GCSEs, and I did 4 full A levels (2 science, a humanity and a language) from a state 6th form college, which wasn't unusual. There was a fair amount of difference in the curriculums offered by different exam boards - especially in the non science subjects, which influenced my decision of college, as I preferred the exam boards they used! For example, some language syllabuses were based round literature in that language, others had a big "project", others focused more on conversing/ understanding rather than writing and so on. With any, you'd end up with the same level of understanding of the subject, but the focus was different, and students who'd followed one syllabus would be "better" at some things than others. So 1st year of uni could be bringing everyone up to the same level in everything. When I started uni in one of the science subjects, there were areas we'd hardly touched at A level, whereas some of my peers had done loads, so found it really easy, and vice versa! (Though I imagine the exact topics would be different between different unis too, depending on the interests/ specialisms of the lecturers, even though teaching would be to the same level).

The National Curriculum in England is much more standardised than the CFE, and was arsed around with a lot when Gove was in charge - who seemed to want to ensure children were taught loads of archaic nonsense like in Eton Grin. Hence the fronted adverbials, total devotion to Shakespeare from age 7 and Roman numerals... Not necessarily useful, but it does seem a bit more academic from a very early age, and eg Y5 in England seem expected to know more "stuff" than P5, though I don't know about the depth of that knowledge, comparatively.

ResilienceWanker · 15/08/2021 12:12

Re exams - DH has found that with the "open book" exams that unis have had to do this year and last, (ie the students can't be in a single room and invigilated, so the exam has to be based round showing knowledge of techniques etc, rather than purely memorising/ regurgitating facts - in his subject at least... would be different in English or something) they have had to be much better at setting questions that can't just be answered by Google! (even though their definition of open book expressly excluded Google Wink) It is actually much easier to distinguish between good and poorer students, and overall the students did better. It's also much more like the actual skills they will need to show in the real world. So if you have to look up a particular equation or something to remember it that is fine, but once you've done that, you need to know how to apply it, how it is relevant to a particular problem etc, which is where the skill comes in - and the time limit will still mean you have to be focused and organised. Having a memory blank about a particular definition or something (nightmare in a traditional exam!) isn't usually a problem in real life when you can look it up... but it's where you go from there that's important!

forfucksakenett · 15/08/2021 12:16

@ResilienceWanker

Re exams - DH has found that with the "open book" exams that unis have had to do this year and last, (ie the students can't be in a single room and invigilated, so the exam has to be based round showing knowledge of techniques etc, rather than purely memorising/ regurgitating facts - in his subject at least... would be different in English or something) they have had to be much better at setting questions that can't just be answered by Google! (even though their definition of open book expressly excluded Google Wink) It is actually much easier to distinguish between good and poorer students, and overall the students did better. It's also much more like the actual skills they will need to show in the real world. So if you have to look up a particular equation or something to remember it that is fine, but once you've done that, you need to know how to apply it, how it is relevant to a particular problem etc, which is where the skill comes in - and the time limit will still mean you have to be focused and organised. Having a memory blank about a particular definition or something (nightmare in a traditional exam!) isn't usually a problem in real life when you can look it up... but it's where you go from there that's important!
That's really encouraging and I think exactly what we would be ultimately aiming for.
forfucksakenett · 15/08/2021 12:17

Or as close to as is possible. Anything that moves away from rote learning and encourages higher order thinking.

ResilienceWanker · 15/08/2021 12:20

@ssd

Ds said at his school they just coached them for exams. They didn't learn stuff needed in the real world, it was all about staying at the top of the league tables.
This is also true! DH recently did an AH paper in his subject, and while he could do it (luckily!) he did think some of the questions were really hard. But then he looked at more and realised that basically, those questions are set every year, so students are just taught how to do them for when they come up in the same spot on the exam! (And then he has to teach the students that actually the way they have been taught isn't especially good, and there's some situations where it gets you into a real mess... so suggests another couple of ways. And still some students get to exams and do it the way they were taught at AH and get into a real mess. So schools seem to be doing something right to drum this method into the students brains!!)
Mistressiggi · 15/08/2021 12:25

Alexa has just explained fronted adverbial to me GrinGrin

ResilienceWanker · 15/08/2021 12:32

@Mistressiggi

Alexa has just explained fronted adverbial to me GrinGrin
Grin That's nice of her! I had to look it up at the beginning of lockdown when MN was going potty over them, and DS has been using them but as "sentence starters" (or something like that!). He'd look at me v oddly if I mentioned fronted adverbial to him HmmConfused. Though admittedly they only really started that level of "interesting writing" in P5 whereas I think in England it's Y3 or 4 they are "taught" them.

But I bet England can't name the 7 cities of Scotland or make up haikus about the Wallace monument Grin

riverrunning · 15/08/2021 12:42

It's terminology - both dc have been taught 'openers'.

Well, we can at least be bloody glad that we aren't facing the employment and educational choices Afghan women and girls have ahead of them.

What a crashing disappointment Biden has turned out to be.

I see 'Britain' is getting a lot of heat on Twitter from nationalists for a crisis squarely caused by US action (not excusing Patel and Johnson in any way for their lack of moral leadership on refugees and getting secularists out).

Scottishskifun · 15/08/2021 12:42

😂 @ResilienceWanker I can tell you that other than Elizabeth the 1st, James and the Stuarts scottish history is not taught in England.