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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Guilt Free Railing 9

993 replies

WouldBeGood · 09/07/2021 21:09

Nine!!!

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WouldBeGood · 23/07/2021 09:46

I agree with that @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us.

I read it and thought it seemed a very sensible approach.

If new evidence emerges then they will review. For example, there’s talk of one vaccination possibly being a better approach for teenagers.

But quite right to approach this carefully. We’ve got to look after our kids.

It really does annoy me, NS claiming to be following science etc, when this science seems pretty clear, though she may not agree with it.

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Scottishskifun · 23/07/2021 09:50

@starryeyesuprise we actually left the EU in Jan 2020 we were just in transition agreement til the 31st of Dec 2020

Many European haulage companies were still operating it seems to be linked to paperwork but also the covid testing requirements as well making it slower and more complicated.

Scottishskifun · 23/07/2021 09:52

@WouldBeGood she also says that she puts children and their education first yet still no decision on school isolations on return. Recent study this morning on the BBC showed no additional risk by using testing rather than isolations. So if she ignores that as well then she not only ignores the science but definitely isn't putting childrens education first!

ResilienceWanker · 23/07/2021 09:57

That's really interesting scottishskifun - thanks!

Do you think the rarity of asymptomatic/ mild initial infection cases is just due to the nature of the LC symptoms not being recognised as anything to do with covid? So if you had bad covid, and the symptoms continued, you'd be more likely to link it with that, and go to your GP early and so on for the GP to not be able to do anything... Whereas if you didn't even know you had covid, you'd think it was a separate issue, and go for various tests and get investigated/ treated for the symptoms individually. Particularly in children/ teens, who would presumably frequently present with things like fatigue, muscle aches, hormonal changes in temperature and so on, just as unfamiliar symptoms of puberty/ growing (or indeed menopause in middle aged women Grin... I have at least 8 of the 13 NHS LC symptoms, but have had them since at least 2017 and control them through HRT) . But presenting together could look like LC, and so be perceived as such by either the child or GP if they are alert to that.

Other than antibodies to covid is there any way of telling whether you have LC rather than the symptoms being something else entirely? And are antibodies acquired through infection different to those from vaccination? Or how would you know if you had ever had covid in the first place rather than just being vaccinated against it so having the antibodies?!

Sorry... So many questions Grin

I'll have a look into the webinar.. Thanks!

IncludeWomenInThePrequel · 23/07/2021 09:57

@StarryEyeSurprise I think the 'just drive for longer' rule is the haulage equivalent of 'just make the app ping less'.

They're off their heads and have no idea how to implement real change, so they do the easiest thing each time, even if it is very obviously endangering people.

latissimusdorsi · 23/07/2021 10:06

Absolutely @StarryEyeSurprise
We don't want tired HGV drivers on the roads!
We really need more drivers trained but the industry needs to invest in this
A friends husband did training and test and it cost them about £3000

WouldBeGood · 23/07/2021 10:08

@ResilienceWanker I think those issues are part of the problem in defining long Covid. People naturally attribute things to having had Covid when they might be unrelated, or psychological effects, particularly in those who’ve been very ill. They think there might be an element of PTSD. It’s interesting.

There’s been a big study in children and long Covid where the symptoms studied were equally prevalent in those who had tested positive and those who had not (it was a blind study). They are therefore thinking there might be a more general impact of the pandemic and it’s handling on children. This study was relating to more general symptoms, not so much physical ones that are easier to measure.

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WouldBeGood · 23/07/2021 10:10

And I totally agree about longer hours for drivers being a dreadful way to deal with the situation of shortages. Just bonkers.

It was really clear that things like this and the rights of workers would be eroded after Brexit. So frustrating.

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WouldBeGood · 23/07/2021 10:14

Oh, last rambling.. I’ve also seen attention drawn to the fairly lengthy recovery times advised for pre-Covid nasty respiratory infections, and they were pretty long too, potentially. So i hope they do some really good research.

I am NOT saying there’s no such thing as long Covid, as there clearly is. And I don’t want Covid or long Covid, or any horrible virus, and feel for those suffering.

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Scottishskifun · 23/07/2021 10:16

@ResilienceWanker

That's really interesting scottishskifun - thanks!

Do you think the rarity of asymptomatic/ mild initial infection cases is just due to the nature of the LC symptoms not being recognised as anything to do with covid? So if you had bad covid, and the symptoms continued, you'd be more likely to link it with that, and go to your GP early and so on for the GP to not be able to do anything... Whereas if you didn't even know you had covid, you'd think it was a separate issue, and go for various tests and get investigated/ treated for the symptoms individually. Particularly in children/ teens, who would presumably frequently present with things like fatigue, muscle aches, hormonal changes in temperature and so on, just as unfamiliar symptoms of puberty/ growing (or indeed menopause in middle aged women Grin... I have at least 8 of the 13 NHS LC symptoms, but have had them since at least 2017 and control them through HRT) . But presenting together could look like LC, and so be perceived as such by either the child or GP if they are alert to that.

Other than antibodies to covid is there any way of telling whether you have LC rather than the symptoms being something else entirely? And are antibodies acquired through infection different to those from vaccination? Or how would you know if you had ever had covid in the first place rather than just being vaccinated against it so having the antibodies?!

Sorry... So many questions Grin

I'll have a look into the webinar.. Thanks!

You do get more LC in people who had mild symptoms during infection there are plenty on the support boards but far less asystomatic. I think your right it does take longer to identify if you had a mild case. Dr's also vary in what they classify as LC some are 4 weeks, others are 12 weeks which doesn't help. Their is also a huge range of symptoms including gut issues and weight loss which people are unaware of. From what I've read about children with LC from parents unless it's at the extreme end then it's not really getting picked up and they are having the same battle in trying to get help from medical professionals. It's also dependent on the medical professional to their opinion just like ME some consider it to be in people's heads which doesn't help at all 🙄 The reason is they can't explain it, majority of tests come back normal from CT scans, chest x rays, blood works (with the exception in quite a few of big vitamin deficiencies but this needs specific request for the test and some have crazy histamine levels). Children are more likely to suffer from covid toes which is an entirely separate condition.

There is a new blood test in development which has found a separate antibody marker that LC sufferers have but the study needs expanding and it won't be ready for at least 6 months (it featured in the panorama programme). It's hoped to become a simple blood test which will also help medical professionals accept its a condition.

Antibodies acquired through infection are different to vaccination yes and there is currently a UK wide piece of research on this (I've already taken the test which showed I have high level of covid infection antibodies). The test can differentiate between the two it's a send away blood test.

IncludeWomenInThePrequel · 23/07/2021 10:20

I would really hope that we rejoin the EU in the future - whether as part of the UK or not - so workers have the protections they had before, among other things. Being left to this populist shambles of a government is making us the most backwards looking island in a lot of respects.

WouldBeGood · 23/07/2021 10:48

I want to be back in for that and the cheap wine @IncludeWomenInThePrequel 😂

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IncludeWomenInThePrequel · 23/07/2021 10:48

It's class all the way with The Women of Scotsnet GrinGrin

latissimusdorsi · 23/07/2021 10:57

I really wish we were still in the eu for all sorts of reasons
I'm now wrong side of 50 and ive accepted that we won't be in again while I'm still working or fit enough to travel lots
Any rejoining would be many years away
We need to address the work skills shortages and all the other issues we've got NOW

StarryEyeSurprise · 23/07/2021 11:12

[quote Scottishskifun]@starryeyesuprise we actually left the EU in Jan 2020 we were just in transition agreement til the 31st of Dec 2020

Many European haulage companies were still operating it seems to be linked to paperwork but also the covid testing requirements as well making it slower and more complicated.[/quote]
I know that we left in January, thanks. Hence why I wrote - there were no issues in Dec/ Jan ( because we were still in the EU).

ResilienceWanker · 23/07/2021 11:19

There is a new blood test in development which has found a separate antibody marker that LC sufferers have but the study needs expanding and it won't be ready for at least 6 months (it featured in the panorama programme). It's hoped to become a simple blood test which will also help medical professionals accept its a condition.

Aaaah. That's promising! Though unless they develop (and fund) better treatment I suppose it's a bit moot. "yes, you have LC - bad luck, there's nothing we can do about it..." Sad From what you've been saying though it sounds like there ARE things that have evidence of improving symptoms, but it's up to you to find out about them and fund them, which is full on shit. At least if LC is an identifiable" illness" there should be a pathway to get on to be eligible for the relevant treatments and, evidence those treatments can be effective. Maybe by then the SG will have got something more coherent together re clinics etc to manage that process from diagnosis. Though I'm not holding my breath.

And yy for back into the EU with its workers rights, seamless trade and cheep booze Grin. Though I do agree with latissimus that we need to work with what we have at the moment, and insist that any "fix" isn't at the expense of rights, safety and whatever. I don't think it's impossible to make brexit work for the uk (albeit less well and more expensively than had there been no brexit Hmm) but it's not helping having the perfect storm of that, covid and the omnishambles of the current political situation in the uk.

Grellbunt · 23/07/2021 11:21

@ResilienceWanker

Thanks mibbe! Yes, I'm back to normal now, and I can smell and taste again - yay!

On the JCVI, yes possibly, though frankly, only looking at the risk vs benefit (medically) for children sounds like it should be exactly the JCVI remit! It's not their job to decide education policy based on that, or how important it is that education for many isn't disrupted vs a small number of children being hospitalised with heart issues vs some children getting long covid. That is purely on the SG to reach a decision as to how they are going to act on the advice that the medical risk to children of covid (in terms of hospitalisations and deaths - which is the only thing the vaccine programme aims to prevent... anything else is a bonus) is outweighed by the risk of the vaccine. England isn't carrying on with class isolation due to contacts at the moment, with the same advice on vaccines, so it's not a foregone conclusion that no vaccination = need to keep bubbles.

Admittedly, the media reports did suggest that the JCVI were straying into that a bit, but looking at their actual press release, they said... "Until more safety data is available and has been evaluated, a precautionary approach is preferred.... Based on the fact that previously well children, if they do get COVID-19, are likely to have a very mild form of the disease, the health benefits of vaccinating them are small. The benefits of reducing transmission to the wider population from children are also highly uncertain, especially as vaccine uptake is very high in older people who are at highest risk from serious COVID-19 infection. We will keep this advice under review as more safety and effectiveness information becomes available." (my emphasis, given NSs and SJs later requests that they keep it under review!)

If NS is saying they should have considered eg long covid too, that seems to be misunderstanding their purpose and the purpose of the vaccine programme, and passes the buck a bit. And I'm not sure we even know if the vaccine does prevent long covid reliably, given it doesn't prevent transmission nearly as well as it prevents hospitalisation and death?

And I agree on the contact SI for people with recent infection! At the moment, I think once you leave your 10 day SI you're fair game for being a close contact again (even if someone in your house comes down with symptoms on day 11 having been locked in with you for the previous 10 days)! I think the argument is that you can still pass it onto others even if your antibodies mean you don't get ill again. But if double jagged people are going to be let off contact isolation, recently positive people should be too, as the same risk applies. Except recently positive people may not be able to prove they are negative with a pcr test for 90 days... so if that is a condition they impose in Scotland for avoiding SI (as suggested by NS) that could be a problem.

In Germany anyone who has had Covid in the last six months is called "a recovered person" and has the same status officially as a vaccinated person.
shouldistop · 23/07/2021 11:59

Totally unrelated to railing or covid. It's ds1 5th birthday soon and gifts are already arriving for him (large family and friends), his party is on his actual birthday and I feel like it might be a bit much to open them all on his birthday as well as have his party.
Do I let him open presents as they arrive this week from wider family, open ours and grandparents on his birthday then presents from party guests that night / following day?
Or should he just open them all on his birthday?

Scottishskifun · 23/07/2021 12:12

@shouldistop I would stagger as you say.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 23/07/2021 12:16

The realities of Brexit have certainly been eye-opening, and yes are a taster of the carnage that leaving the UK would bring. Should we have left? Perhaps not (especially given all the problems)! Should we rejoin? Well that's a more complicated question - the UK or Scotland wouldn't get such favourable terms as before and as above this process would take many years. Is it worth leaving the UK in order to (maybe, eventually) rejoin the EU? Absolutely not IMO. I tend to be of the opinion that we are where we are and should move forward (and try not to repeat past mistakes) rather than squabble about what might have been.

On a loosely related rail, I see it's reported today that people (students in this case) who have had one jag in England and the second in Scotland are not officially considered fully vaccinated because the systems can't link up! This is the same kind of rail I've made before about various aspects of the pandemic response - what do we gain from having completely separate systems?? Wouldn't it be easier all round if the UK health service (and other things I'm sure) had one over arching system that all the nations/regions linked in to?

Scottishskifun · 23/07/2021 12:18

know that we left in January, thanks. Hence why I wrote - there were no issues in Dec/ Jan ( because we were still in the EU).

So you were referring to we had no issues 18 months ago? We had already been out of the EU for a year by January this year.
Transition ended the Dec just gone the issue with supply in drivers has ramped up the last month or so.

Northern Ireland has been a big issue since the 1st of Jan this year though

WouldBeGood · 23/07/2021 12:22

Definitely stagger @shouldistop.

Like me after my cheap European wine 😂

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shouldistop · 23/07/2021 12:30

@WouldBeGood Grin

Ok two votes for stagger, that's what I thought tbh. That means he'll probably have a present to open every day this week which he will love.

It also means we can get started on the thank you cards straight away which is always some effort. Ds1 doesn't particularly like drawing and writing and struggles to hold a pencil properly so for practice I get him to do his own cards, decorating and writing his name. He'll only do it for 10 minutes at a time but knows it's important to say thank you so doesn't completely refuse at least!

latissimusdorsi · 23/07/2021 12:31

Yeah @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us it's been mentioned on scotsnet before not to get one jag in each country as systems don't link up so will only show as having had one dose

latissimusdorsi · 23/07/2021 12:41

@shouldistop at his age I would stagger, maybe even keep one for couple days after his birthday
We have a close relative who's always had great difficulty getting presents herein time for kids actual birthdays Hmmbut it actually works out quite well