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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Tiering up the Covid elimination strategy

999 replies

dancemom · 26/05/2021 20:04

Sadly the end was not as close as we thought so new thread required ....

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latissimusdorsi · 16/06/2021 12:12

Yes that's true. I Was meaning going forward, like next winter when they will be the only unvaccinated group of the population. Do they stop all the isolation in schools and just expose children?

SoMuchForSummerLove · 16/06/2021 12:14

I still don't see them scrapping measures to stop spread in schools.

England launched Long Covid clinics for kids yesterday, so there will be a cost element to this too. Kids must be getting LC in sufficient numbers to make clinics necessary, so it would seem quite rash to pretend that kids are never affected and that all parents would be happy for them to attend school on the basis of no precautions whatsoever.

latissimusdorsi · 16/06/2021 12:18

The rhetoric for children has changed too. Originally it was kids didn't really spread the original variant therefore schools were safe. But the new variants spread amongst children.
Don't know what the answer is , but then I'm not s as scientist!

SoMuchForSummerLove · 16/06/2021 12:22

I think that's to do with asymptomatic versus symptomatic spread is it not? So kids are more regularly asymptomatic, and the thinking is that's why they spread it less (no coughing etc).

That rings a bell anyway!

ResilienceWanker · 16/06/2021 12:46

I'm struggling with the idea that the current disruption of education could continue indefinitely, to be honest. I agree that children shouldn't be vaccinated at the moment (apart from in certain circumstances where the benefit to that child - or possibly their family - outweighs the risk). But if that means that the current cycle of testing, isolation of close contacts, and associated severe limits on activities in schools and extra-curriculars to protect bubbles and so on continues, I'm no longer so sure.

In an ideal world (albeit an ideal world with covid) with all over 18s fully vaccinated with whatever boosters or variations are needed to target particular variants, I think we just have to assume that children will catch covid and so develop some immunity. Unfortunately, some will have a much heavier burden in terms of the severity of the disease and recovery from it than others. But in that case I do think that the emphasis should be on helping those few (with additional resources), rather than limiting the lives and education of everyone else. Of course, things may change over time - vaccines may improve to reduce risk to children, or the disease may worsen in children, so altering the vaccine risk/ benefit - so it's always possible to change the process. But knowing what we do at the moment about the disease in children, and having our current vaccine toolkit, it doesn't seem proportionate to mass-vaccinate children, to me. Especially if the choice is UK kids or older people in other countries... though I'm not convinced that's an either/or sum in the medium to long term.

I'm not even sure if the current vaccines mean that people can't develop long covid anyway, if that is what we want children to avoid? I know they reduce transmission, and so reduce the number of people being infected - and of those infected the risk of severe disease is pretty negligible. But I think there is still a risk of mild disease, and as a result long covid, which doesn't seem to tie itself to "worse" cases, from what I've read?

I imagine over time, there will be public health recommendations that anyone diagnosed with covid stays at home for a period (as per chicken pox, for example) and anyone with a cough or cold symptoms takes extra precautions - such as mask wearing, not visiting hospitals etc unnecessarily and so on - as per flu/ norovirus at the moment. But when Chris Whitty and whatsisface talk about "living with covid" I take that to mean very much more "2019 normal with extra guidance" than mandated quarantine, perma-masks, walls of perspex or cellophane if you are even allowed to see people face to face, and reduced capacity everywhere in perpetuity. I know we get used to stuff, but that kind of life seems several giant leaps too far. I admit as a misanthrope I'm quite enjoying slightly less cramped cafes and table service. Not enough to want it to threaten the livelihoods of those places though...

Pootle40 · 16/06/2021 12:54

@WouldBeGood

But kids only have to isolate to protect adults and once adults vaccinated no need for the isolations and closures.
Agreed
SoMuchForSummerLove · 16/06/2021 13:02

Not all parents are going to be in agreement though.

latissimusdorsi · 16/06/2021 13:11

@WouldBeGood

But kids only have to isolate to protect adults and once adults vaccinated no need for the isolations and closures.
And that would be a strategy of allowing kids to be exposed to Covid
SoMuchForSummerLove · 16/06/2021 13:36

Just saw this on Politico - info from a leaked document showing what kind of measures are being discussed in Whitehall to show what 'normal' might look like after this stage ends.

In short: looks like masks will remain in some circumstances, as will isolating, distancing will go (but who even distances now anyway!), working from home or at least a hybrid is likely to be encouraged in the long term, border controls and post-travel isolation will remain too.

www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/politico-london-playbook-living-with-corona-work-from-home-long-term-perspex-screens-scrapped/

Pootle40 · 16/06/2021 13:57

Well yes it would be @latissimusdorsi

dancemom · 16/06/2021 14:06

• 1,129 new cases of COVID-19 reported
• 35,638 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results
◦ 3.4% of these were positive
• 1 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive
• 15 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19
• 133 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19
• 3,551,739 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 2,493,358 have received their second dose
*Please note that this excludes data from GP systems from 14 June 2021. These will be included in tomorrow's figures.

OP posts:
dancemom · 16/06/2021 14:06

420,699 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 154,647 1st doses / 175,703 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 20,278 / 23,177
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 4,178 / 21,277
NI 10,930 / 10,509

OP posts:
SoMuchForSummerLove · 16/06/2021 14:10

Thanks @dancemom is it that time of day already!

ResilienceWanker · 16/06/2021 14:19

That's interesting somuch - thanks for the link! The WFH thing is interesting. Presumably the right to request flexible working for carers/ parents would be extended to everyone, and employers can only refuse if there is a business case. I suppose the one benefit of the past 18 months is that many people have had a chance to see whether WFH is actually the idyll they would have assumed, or if some kind of hybrid would work best, and employers would find it difficult to argue that work can't be done effectively at home (even partly) assuming they've made it this far...

The sick pay thing and changing the "presentee" culture is interesting too - though obviously something that should have been addressed years ago. Though I do wonder how care homes, schools and even eg volunteer organisations will cope with that. They rely on the good will of the staff to come in even when they "shouldn't" - not to let the children/ clients down, or because no one else will do it if I don't. I imagine there will be times when these places are short staffed due to circulating bugs and just can't operate their services as needed at short notice. I have no idea how that would work long term in, for example, a care home or a school where there is a shortage of locum/ supply anyway. At the moment they are struggling on with reduced services and so on, but when the demand on the staff and services increase again I can see that getting tricky without any slack built in.

SoMuchForSummerLove · 16/06/2021 14:22

Yes, agree about the sick pay thing. I think one of the recommendations from that society panel thing from the Scottish Gov was to stop paying 'sick pay' to those isolating as they're not sick, and just to keep paying their wages (assuming the company claims money back from the gov to facilitate that, I guess).

ResilienceWanker · 16/06/2021 14:29

Yes. In some cases people don't get sick pay anyway til day 3 (?) if they are paid statutory sick pay, rather than just their salary through company sick leave. Which really discourages people feeling just a bit off colour from staying off work. Though, if this period has taught the gov anything, it has to be that sometimes allocating money for something like that is a good move, to prevent haemmorhaging cash on furlough or whatever further down the line....

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 16/06/2021 15:25

I'd want to see more about the arrangements for isolating, but if it is limited to people who are actually symptomatic for the duration of their symptoms (or perhaps a day or two afterwards) I think I would support that. Abolishing the culture where people come into the office clearly unwell and try to manage it with Lemsips or whatever would probably be of benefit for all manner of diseases. If they're going to insist that the whole household continues to isolate because someone is unwell that doesn't seem sustainable long term (particularly for families with young children who have a cold every other week).

I think a blend of in-office and home working might be good too (now that we've proven it can work), but I do wish the masks would go, or at least become optional so those who feel safe wearing them can continue to do so but everyone else isn't forced to.

ResilienceWanker · 16/06/2021 15:43

limited to people who are actually symptomatic for the duration of their symptoms (or perhaps a day or two afterwards)
This sounds sensible to me. Like you can't go into school for 48hrs after D&V. Though the article suggested it would be until they had a negative test. This confused me a bit, as i thought you could carry on testing positive for aaaaages afterwards. But its not actual policy yet, so I'm not going to try and think through what an absolute bin-fire that would be. I think the close contacts thing needs to go really soon (apart from maybe for family/ household members)! If they think asymptomatic or presymptomatic spread is a real risk, rather than hypothetical, then maybe daily testing or something - but isolating perfectly healthy and uninfected people just in case really can't be "living with covid". Of course, if they do then get symptoms, they would isolate for that, but if not - what is the point?

And yy to voluntary masks.

Scottishskifun · 16/06/2021 15:51

@ResilienceWanker yep getting a negative test can take months as the virus is still present in low levels but your not contagious anymore.
Can't PCR test for 90 days as its likely to result in a false positive.

itsjustlowhangingfruit · 16/06/2021 17:18

Any teachers?

FIL has phoned to say he's heard all schools are closing on Friday. Apparently NS made an announcement?

Can't see anything online? Has he misheard?

I thought it was next Thursday (in our LA anyway)

DD is potentially changing to a school in another LA (Stirling) - we are looking at two schools - and we have a visit planned there next week but if its going to be closed, then we can't go, can we?

Anyone know what FIL is on about?

SoMuchForSummerLove · 16/06/2021 17:30

There's certainly nothing in the news about that.

I'd be astounded if they didn't just ride out the last week of term.

Although I spoke to a colleague who said half of his kids school is now isolating...

Icannever · 16/06/2021 17:40

It’s could just be a specific area/school that’s closing early?

hilbil21 · 16/06/2021 17:43

I've seen a few people saying that it's from this time last year (online) and the rumour mill is in full swing.

Whataboutme21 · 16/06/2021 17:55

We had that rumour in our area today. I think it was down to someone sharing a Facebook memory from last year

Lidlfix · 16/06/2021 18:41

Some Stirling schools have significant numbers of pupils and staff isolating but when I left school today (other than than latest health board letter) there was nothing being said about closing early.

I did fall for a spoof on Twitter at the weekend where the BBC news page from March last year announcing schools to close was uploaded. I was overjoyed for 10 mins thinking my running the iso for the start of the holidays gauntlet might be ending early. I suspect that just like Xmas many parents will start to keep their DC home from the worst effected schools as we are posting everything online for the isolators anyway.