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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

999 replies

TheShadowyFeminist · 06/04/2021 15:46

New 🧵

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forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 10:41

Having them in the evenings and at weekends as well would help with the participation issue.

WouldBeGood · 12/04/2021 10:50

It wouldn’t help carers, or people with full on careers/businesses/hospitality workers/etc.

Many people work until long into the nights and at weekends.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 10:54

@WouldBeGood

It wouldn’t help carers, or people with full on careers/businesses/hospitality workers/etc.

Many people work until long into the nights and at weekends.

People who work in catering and hospitality have time off the same as anyone else. If we were going to have a series of panels they would have to place across a variety of times. Evenings, weekdays, during the week etc to account for different working patterns.

Full time carers are a different matter sadly and these poor souls never get a break. I don't think that would be a reason not to have citizens panels though. I do agree that more respite has to be provided to these people and it is a hugely underfunded and complex area.

ResilienceWanker · 12/04/2021 10:54

Good point sempre - a good Parliament should already have an aspect of citizens assembly-ness about it. However, I suppose we don't appoint an MP or MSP directly to represent our wishes - rather we trust they are someone who will make good decisions in the interests of their constituents, regardless of what we personally think about an issue.

So I personally wouldn't vote for an indy-supporting MSP, but if one is elected I would expect them to support a policy that I, and potentially the majority of their constituents don't support, because they have said they would in their manifesto!

Obviously more local or "new" issues arising that there is no party policy on there may be a bit more leeway with representations to the MP/ MSP reflecting constituent wishes. Hence you get even relatively high ranking government MPs supporting constituents against a local building project or whatever, even if "building" in general is supported by the government.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 10:57

And for the people with full on careers I would say that it's a balance that they need to determine.

sessell · 12/04/2021 11:41

The only place I could find the Alba women and equalities statement online is on the wings site, here wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-line-of-defence/ ( I found the Twitter pic impossible to read! ). Can't find it on the Alba party site.

I read the GRA citizens assembly proposal in two ways:

  1. In the context of a very strong commitment in the statement to sex-based rights and protections. It was the erosion of sex-based rights or conflation of sex with gender that was the problem with the GRA. @sempre I think defining women re sex not gender is good enough.

  2. a citizens assembly would be a mechanism for opening up the conversation and getting it beyond narrow interests. A ground rule must be that sex based rights are solidly protected as part of the equality act and that is not in the remit. Citizens assemblies are randomly selected as a balanced representation of the population. They are generally paid for time and expenses. They are a great way of tackling difficult debates.

SempreSuiGeneris · 12/04/2021 11:57

sessell does the Equalities Act define "sex based " womanhood? Are the rights granted trans exclusionary? If they are why all the getting tied in knots over trying to include women in the HCB?

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/04/2021 12:18

Any citizen's panel is dependent upon the quality of the experts put before it. So it only works if they are presented with a good range of expertise from different sides. Can you imagine a Scotgov coordinated citizens panel looking at GRA reform for example? Who would be invited to speak. Hmmm. Let me think. Stonewall, Mermaids, the (in)equality network. They'd be recommending self id at the nearest post office by the end of day 1. Issues of regulatory capture and interest groups would just be hidden behind the panel instead.
I'm not opposed to more public participation but I think it is problematic in our current context

SempreSuiGeneris · 12/04/2021 12:20

On Citizens' Assemblies sessell you destroy your own point about "opening up the conversation" when in the very next sentence you self define the acceptable parameters.

There are already extensive consultation mechanisms in place for discussing policy issues. These are much more broadly based than a Citizens' Assembly. I have taken part in consultations on education, disability support, healthcare, childcare etc etc. Most of my friends and relations have similar experiences.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 12:48

@StatisticallyChallenged

Any citizen's panel is dependent upon the quality of the experts put before it. So it only works if they are presented with a good range of expertise from different sides. Can you imagine a Scotgov coordinated citizens panel looking at GRA reform for example? Who would be invited to speak. Hmmm. Let me think. Stonewall, Mermaids, the (in)equality network. They'd be recommending self id at the nearest post office by the end of day 1. Issues of regulatory capture and interest groups would just be hidden behind the panel instead. I'm not opposed to more public participation but I think it is problematic in our current context
I just can't agree with this. Surely it's dependant on the people on the panel?

I think you do your fellow citizens a great disservice if you think that they can't listen to people and form an independent opinion.

That being said I think that any citizen panels should be of cross party design and then that should encourage a broad range of experts.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 12:48

Dependent

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/04/2021 12:55

Surely it's both. If you take a group of averagely intelligent people and present them with biased information from multiple "experts" they are likely to draw a particular conclusion. Some will be knowledgeable or interested enough to research but for a topic like GRA I think it could easily be a problem.

There's a reason juries aren't only presented with the prosecution case.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 12:57

Yes. That's why I said that cross party organisation would be a good idea so that there are a range of experts.

I think most people are pretty good at forming their own opinions and drawing their own conclusions.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 12:57

Why do you think GRA in particular would be a problem?

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/04/2021 12:59

If they could actually organise them in such a way then possibly - which is what I initially said. Not opposed to the concept but the way the SG is operating just now I would have no faith in it

TheShadowyFeminist · 12/04/2021 13:00

Citizens' Assemblies would pretty much exclude anyone with caring responsibilities and especially those tied to the school day - disproportionately women.

This is a big concern I think - one of the reasons (IMO) that women's rights have been so easily swept aside as unimportant & 'flexible' to accommodate males who 'feel like women' is because a large proportion of women are bogged down with caring responsibilities that mean the weekday, during the normal working week, there's automatically a barrier there when you've got either work with childcare or you may have an elderly or disabled family member you're responsible for, or you are in receipt of care for your own disabilities etc. That's a huge & important section of the population excluded before you even start.

I think there needs to be a better model determined to ensure fair & equitable engagement & tbh the online meetings we've all been forced into in lockdown are more accessible when you do have caring responsibilities.

Suggesting that people can just take time off work, if you're a working parent, ignores the fact (for me anyway) you're trying to stretch 5 week's annual leave across 13 weeks school holidays & it's not as easy as just taking time off - that then impacts the cost of child care you need to add onto what you already budget for, as you lose more annual leave.

Engender & the NACWG vanity project that Sturgeon set up (I suspect as a distraction to the growing concerns both Scotgov & their core third sector women's orgs they funded didn't want to listen to or give any airtime to) consistently set up meetings that were scheduled when it was most difficult for working class women, working parents, unpaid carers etc. And the NACWG specifically refused to allow any discussion on the clashes over sex & gender ID. I don't think any of this was 'accidental'.

It allows those without caring responsibilities to be more able to shape & direct the agenda, and that's been a disaster for women in Scotland to date.

I don't know if the NACWG is an example of, or similar to the citizens assembly suggestion, but that was micro managed to the nth degree & wasn't in any way conducive to ever resolving the clash of rights & concerns. It was an appalling unrepresentative exercise that ended up with bizarre suggestions about 'intersectional gender architecture' & 'gender beacons' 🤨 It smacks of middle class naval gazing IMO.

That's my worry with this - the very people who see & will experience many of the consequences of policy that impact women's sex based rights - to female only carers, HCPs, support etc. will have significant barriers to overcome to even participate.

I'll have a look at the link posted, but I still think there's a lot of safeguarding work needing to be done before you even get to the 'citizen's assembly' stage & that takes time & research too. The impact on women hasn't been researched properly at all. That's vital IMO.

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forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 13:04

Okay but they could have them at various times throughout the week. They don't have to be in school time, 9-5, Monday to Friday. They could be whenever.

People have busy lives, I get that, but I don't see why the fact that some people have busy lives should mean that citizens panels can't be a thing.

Most people have some time off. Be that a couple of hours a week or two days. If people want to do something they will generally find a way.

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/04/2021 13:05

@forfucksakenett

Why do you think GRA in particular would be a problem?
Because of the way it has been handled thus far. Who would be invited to speak - grassroots women's groups who the government readily dismiss as hate groups, or organisations in receipt of government funding who have already largely captured the discussion in this area?

It is very easy to make GRA reform (as an example) seem far more straightforward than it really is, to present it as just a removal of pointless and expensive gate keeping without even discussing the potential problems it presents.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 13:07

I do take your point @StatisticallyChallenged and these women's groups should be represented too.

StarryEyeSurprise · 12/04/2021 13:09

Re the citizen's assembly- we're not the first country to do this. Yes - there is a need for ensuring all demographics of people are included and that barriers to participation are removed as much as possible- but it's not like there aren't successful, experienced citizen's assemblies we can learn from. For example - a creche or nursery on site to allow women who don't have childcare, to attend.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 13:13

Or they could be online now surely?

TheShadowyFeminist · 12/04/2021 13:14

People have busy lives, I get that, but I don't see why the fact that some people have busy lives should mean that citizens panels can't be a thing.

There has to be an effort to ensure fair & equitable engagement & anything set up that puts barriers in the way of a significant proportion of the population won't achieve what it sets out to do. And particularly with GRA reform, that's even more important.

The wilful avoidance of seeking women's experiences & views of why male inclusion in female only space/services/support/sport isn't 'just admin' it's the most shameful aspect of how Scotgov/SNP/Sturgeon has handled GRA reform.

OP posts:
forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 13:23

Yes but as I've said many times I don't see how with

  • panels taking place across a variety of times / days to suit
  • panels taking place online

These barriers can't be removed or significantly lessened.

@StarryEyeSurprise also suggested a crèche type situation could be used.

Surely these ideas promote equity?

annabelindajane · 12/04/2021 13:32

Some of my friends are just too busy bogged down with hard work , ( sometimes 2 jobs) children, pets , housework to be even properly aware of all this and just roll their eyes in horror at all the trans and gender issues . They know but not how far down the road it’s gone .
These are probably the ladies we need , lots of common sense .I think a lot of us seem totally bewildered by it all and I wonder if society is just overthinking everything to the point we need committee on committee .

StarryEyeSurprise · 12/04/2021 13:36

theferret.scot/claim-snp-funding-paedophile-charter-groups-ffs/

The Wings blogger has utterly lost the plot now.