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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

999 replies

TheShadowyFeminist · 06/04/2021 15:46

New 🧵

OP posts:
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annabelindajane · 11/04/2021 18:48

See there is a lot on the ILGA thing over on the main board .

As someone mentioned there’s even a bit about legalising exposure

“ What’s that about - a flashers charter”

TheShadowyFeminist · 12/04/2021 06:59

Alba's Women & Equalities statement (policy?)

Link to tweet

It's gone further than I expected. So will be interesting to see what others say in comparison. I think we can predict SNP/Greens/LibDems will be very TWAW, not sure about Labour.

OP posts:
SempreSuiGeneris · 12/04/2021 07:28

No definition of "women"?
GRA reform still makes it to the priority list. Citizen's Assembly is a complete cop out to deal with what is a legally complex area.
Noticeable focus on women as a separate cohort which could be counterproductive.
Nothing on reproductive rights.
Nothing on the HCB.
Altogether reads as a very defensive document with tunnel vision focus on how best to manage a threat which wasn't even countenanced less than a decade ago.
More than a bit depressing tbh.

TheShadowyFeminist · 12/04/2021 07:42

I agree a citizen's assembly is an awful suggestion. The GRA was never looked at in terms of impact on women & its purpose was much different to what we are dealing with now. Same sex marriage makes a difference to the need for it & the widening definitions associated with the 'trans umbrella' has shifted the goal posts significantly, especially when a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria is absent from a large chunk of those now pooled under that umbrella.

And a citizen's assembly can be hijacked by motivated people, in much the same way as Scotgov & just about every institution in Scotland has been already.

They should have gone down the route of committing to looking at its origins, the need/intention, the changes & most importantly committed to carrying out a thorough impact assessment to gather all the known & potential impacts on women's rights, before even thinking of something like a citizen's assembly.

The commitment to upholding sex based rights could easily be swept aside if they don't build a clear picture of what it is that's being pushed for, and ensure the intended & unintended consequences are fully assessed & evidenced.

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LizzieMacQueen · 12/04/2021 09:01

Is the citizen's assembly modelled on the 17 (or was it 19 ?) people they canvassed on several things. The one that a MNer was on?

Blurberoo · 12/04/2021 09:19

Citizen’s Assembly is a great example of participative democracy and a breath of fresh air in our stagnant political system. I’d hope that it would be hard to hijack, the process is facilitated but participants would quickly notice if they were being ‘led’ and disengage which would void the exercise- it has to be meaningful to work. www.citizensassembly.scot/

WouldBeGood · 12/04/2021 09:22

I’d much rather have actual proper competent government than fannying about with citizens’ assemblies.

And as for being led, if this year has shown anything it’s how very easy it is to manipulate the public.

Blurberoo · 12/04/2021 09:39

The dream would be competent government AND Citizens Assemblies for me! people are easily led at the moment by having a surface understanding or knee jerk opinion of issues that affect them, IMO. Using dialogue and deliberation to come to an understanding of how other people are affected in different ways by listening to and sharing their own experiences would be inspiring for participants and could create real change.

WouldBeGood · 12/04/2021 09:46

It sound be hopeless though, as anyone with an actual job or business wouldn’t have time to sit on one, so you’d be starting with a certain pool.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 09:47

@WouldBeGood

It sound be hopeless though, as anyone with an actual job or business wouldn’t have time to sit on one, so you’d be starting with a certain pool.
People who were interested and able to could book time off work I'm sure.
forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 09:48

@Blurberoo

The dream would be competent government AND Citizens Assemblies for me! people are easily led at the moment by having a surface understanding or knee jerk opinion of issues that affect them, IMO. Using dialogue and deliberation to come to an understanding of how other people are affected in different ways by listening to and sharing their own experiences would be inspiring for participants and could create real change.
Totally agree!
Blurberoo · 12/04/2021 09:52

You get paid to attend and chosen at random but representing a demographic of Scottish society.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 09:53

It would be good if it ended up a jury duty type thing although without the fines etc for not wanting to be involved. Political participation, for those who want it, can only be a good thing surely?

WouldBeGood · 12/04/2021 09:57

It still means that the pool is a certain type of person.

Let’s try to get some politicians who aren’t total numpties first.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 10:03

I don't know what you mean by 'a certain type of person' though.

People who don't work, people who can get time off work, people who work for themselves and can rearrange work, people who work part time ...

Hardly a narrow stereotype is it?

WouldBeGood · 12/04/2021 10:12

I mean that anyone whose income depends on them personally being at work wouldn’t be able to do it. So that the views expressed would be from those who are able to take time to sit on such an assembly.

Unless we scrap the Scottish Parliament and substitute a citizens’ assembly, in a kind of Athenian model. Least it would save money.

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 10:16

@WouldBeGood

I mean that anyone whose income depends on them personally being at work wouldn’t be able to do it. So that the views expressed would be from those who are able to take time to sit on such an assembly.

Unless we scrap the Scottish Parliament and substitute a citizens’ assembly, in a kind of Athenian model. Least it would save money.

An easy way to avoid that would be to have them at a varying times. Some through the day, some evenings, some weekends etc.

Political participation can only be a good thing. The chance to have a voice beyond putting a cross against a name.

I can't think of a truly great politician. Maybe there have been a few but not currently. The only way forward is more voices and more participation.

Blurberoo · 12/04/2021 10:18

@WouldBeGood Get rid of politicians? Now you’re talking! Grin

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 10:18

Yes! Something we all agree on!

WouldBeGood · 12/04/2021 10:19

Down with politicians! 😂

I’ll add that to my wine import manifesto 😃

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 10:20

Haha yes!

SempreSuiGeneris · 12/04/2021 10:25

Citizens' Assemblies would pretty much exclude anyone with caring responsibilities and especially those tied to the school day - disproportionately women.

I doubt "ordinary people" would ever volunteer for such an assembly because the parameters of acceptable discourse have already been narrowed to such an extent.

As was shown by the findings of the Citizens' Assembly which came down in favour of Zero Covid it is extremely easy to manipulate the debate by curating the expert panel. Easier still to manipulate the findings by redefining the policy post hoc. Again see "Zero Covid" which, according to Devi, no longer means zero or even maximum suppression.

SempreSuiGeneris · 12/04/2021 10:32

I don't agree at all. A bit like Democracy itself the only thing politicians have to commend them is that they are better than the alternative. I am fully justified in critiquing a politician making a political argument and balancing the rights and responsibilities of the citizenry. They are paid to publicly make the case and defend their reasoning and motivations. In fact they are already paid to take on board the views of their constituents. In that regard a Parliament is already a "Citizens' Assembly".

Not so a group of my fellow anonymous citizens.

ResilienceWanker · 12/04/2021 10:39

I don't think a citizens assembly is a substitute for competent, democratic government, though. The recent one (100 people I think - much broader than the small citizens panel on the Covid response) came up with lots of nice sounding recommendations, which the government should take account of in the next Parliament. They aren't fully formed policies by any means, and much more work would need to be done to implement them. It takes up time, yes, but it's not like a full time job. I agree having to take time off work or arrange childcare to attend the sessions could well put off parents or carers - especially single parents, who may have to save all their leave to cover holidays/ child sickness or whatever. And unless it is a kind of jury service system, it would attract people who already have some kind of interest in politics - but that's the case already with local democracy (community councils, charity boards and so on attract "certain types" of people, which is why they are always trying to increase representation of women/ ethnic minorities/ people with disabilities and so on). So it's a good thing to do, but it's not really that earth-shattering an idea.

There would also have to be some kind of legislation as to how "bound" governments are by the decisions. Otherwise they could easily just not do anything towards certain recommendations if it's too difficult or expensive or unpopular. Or they could put unpopular/ controversial decisions to a panel or assembly and so pass the buck on actually reaching a decision (which the SNP does have form for doing in forms of public consultation exercises, which then get either shelved and never spoken of again, or used in a "numbers game" to support scientifically illiterate but publicly popular policies).

So while it's a good idea to increase public engagement and so on, I don't think it is safe to put "in the hands" of an otherwise incompetent administration - and it wouldn't let such an administration off the hook!

forfucksakenett · 12/04/2021 10:40

I don't want to cover too much old ground because it turned quite nasty last time and a member of that panel is a poster here but I think it's highly insulting to those people to suggest that they were manipulated. Why would they be prone to manipulation but you, or others, are not?

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