Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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I was going to comment in similar vein @StatisticallyChallenged.

This situation isn't helped when the most senior political figures suggest that there are 2 sides and therefore only two choices and anything else is fence sitting.

@happygolurkey

Could both sides maybe stop with the sweeping statements about each other? I'm a unionist but I'm not a bigot, most of us aren't. Indy supporters get very fucked off with being called thick or racists, as do no voters at being called rich tory bigots.

couldn't agree more. Can we add calling people hateful, brainwashed, describing them as being 'in a cult' and continually telling them to 'wake up' to that? And jobless? Would also be nice not to describe an entire section of society being 'third or fourth generation unemployed' who are gaming the system and who will never work either now or under independence.

So too would not demonising people for having the temerity to discuss gulp working in a job. I struggle to think of any other country where discussing work is a bad thing. Scots used to be known for their work ethic.

Less than half of working age, able bodied adults in Scotland pay in one tax. I think it's sad that people are being promised the moon, the sun and the stars by the Snp when it's clear that it's the very people they are being trained to hate the most, the rich, who will have to pay for it. And the rich are likely to leave, so to balance the books, someone else is going to have to work and pay much higher taxes.

I think the issue of a border for Scotland and England is actually more complicated that the Irish border situation. which is really now to do with the Good Friday Agreement and its preservation and then customs requirements.

If Scotland were an independent state, then you will have a border - that is because of immigration, tax, customs, international custom, fishing rights, territorial waters, diplomacy and then also the great unsayable, military and international precedent.

Its not so simple is it, for Scotland to say, we don't want a border - once independence is ratified by a referendum, why would Westminster act except in its own interest? The old dictum about people not getting better in a divorce applies. So you would assume that the situation now, while it is certainly difficult, gets much more difficult over night with an independence referendum being won in favour. Why is there an assumption that Westminster, who apparently are horrible, would suddenly turn out to be reasonable and responsible towards Scotland when the line has always been how awful they are?

Agree Redacted, it isn't helpful at all. It should be far less dominant in day to day politics whereas at the moment it seems to be the starting point for deciding who is friend or foe, who you should vote for, whether a policy should be supported or not. It's almost like if you imagined every decision there's a flowchart and the first question is "are they a nat or a yoon"

You have to assume that there would likely be import tariffs on goods going to, and through England. Possibly also additional health and other requirements. Definately longer periods for goods spent in transit through England to EU countries. More expense, and more time. Some goods will pass through Rosyth but it has limited capacity and most would need to go via Immingham or the Channel ports.

demonising people for having the temerity to discuss gulp working in a job

who has demonised anyone in this way?

Fact is Stats and Redacted we have had 6 threads now of all sorts of derogatory and ignorant name calling of, not just people who support independence, but Scots in general. And when it's called out for what it is - I'm sorry but some of it is horrible bigotry - suddenly you are all up on your high horses.
I agree it's all very unhelpful though.
would be good if people stuck to what you suggest but i very much doubt it

I asked all these questions and no one is able to say. At least they’ve now acknowledged there will be a border although no details.

@Scottishskifun I used to live in D&G and Carlisle is the destination of choice for a day out shopping, (and a primark,) museums , Asda, concert venue, etc. Glasgow is at least two hours away; Edinburgh three.

@happygolurkey

demonising people for having the temerity to discuss gulp working in a job

who has demonised anyone in this way?

Fact is Stats and Redacted we have had 6 threads now of all sorts of derogatory and ignorant name calling of, not just people who support independence, but Scots in general. And when it's called out for what it is - I'm sorry but some of it is horrible bigotry - suddenly you are all up on your high horses.
I agree it's all very unhelpful though.
would be good if people stuck to what you suggest but i very much doubt it

Criticism of the SNP is not criticism of Scots FFS. The majority of Scots do not bot SNP.

Vote

Clean slate time??

Not arguing over old insults?

It was very telling when @circles said, 'You're so easy to bait' the other day.

@happygolurkey

demonising people for having the temerity to discuss gulp working in a job

who has demonised anyone in this way?

Fact is Stats and Redacted we have had 6 threads now of all sorts of derogatory and ignorant name calling of, not just people who support independence, but Scots in general. And when it's called out for what it is - I'm sorry but some of it is horrible bigotry - suddenly you are all up on your high horses.
I agree it's all very unhelpful though.
would be good if people stuck to what you suggest but i very much doubt it

Incidentally, I've never met an SNP supporter with a full time job.

oh my God, are you actually for real?

as I say, your views sum up exactly why we need independence and why your likes must never ever get control of Scotland - I really shudder to think of it.

Literally on the previous page. And I did heavily qualify my previous comment saying that I didn't even know that many SNP supporters, but of the ones I've met, they did tend to have plenty of time on their hands and the ability to post their political beliefs under their own names all over FB. A lot of people don't have that dubious luxury, because their employers wouldn't be too happy.

@happygolurkey

demonising people for having the temerity to discuss gulp working in a job

who has demonised anyone in this way?

Fact is Stats and Redacted we have had 6 threads now of all sorts of derogatory and ignorant name calling of, not just people who support independence, but Scots in general. And when it's called out for what it is - I'm sorry but some of it is horrible bigotry - suddenly you are all up on your high horses.
I agree it's all very unhelpful though.
would be good if people stuck to what you suggest but i very much doubt it

Well it seems that you are the one on your high horse by managing to add in more insults for your side while saying you agreed that we shouldn't do it.

There was no need to add in more.

You doubt others will stick to it while adding more fuel to the fire and then call others out who didn't. Aye go on then

And in response to another poster on the previous page, attempting to discuss the problem of multi-generational unemployment in certain parts of Scotland:

Utter Tory bile. The ignorance and bigotry of Unionists seems to know no bounds

Redacted Well it seems that you are the one on your high horse by managing to add in more insults for your side while saying you agreed that we shouldn't do it.

It is relevant though. And its not insulting to discuss social problems within Scotland. You can't just cover them up. Scotland has by far the highest drugs deaths in Europe, and this is one of the major reasons why.

The online debate is being fuelled by people with the luxury of posting what they like on social media. Most people cannot do that, because their jobs will be at risk. That is relevant.

I see no rule preventing me from pointing this out. Whats to be gained from covering it up?

@StarryEyeSurprise

It was very telling when *@circles* said, 'You're so easy to bait' the other day.

100% this. Exceptionally telling.

In order to have a proper exercise of democracy that you can actually discuss things, because if you can't do that, then there are far bigger problems for Scottish society to come than a few clapped out politicians in Westminster.

Insults come when there's not an argument to be made. In practice, I have always found people resort to insults or jibes or shouting when you hit the mark or discomfort then. Then they are rude, belligerent, whatever.

The reason I don't like the SNP is because this is actually how they operate. It is sloganising without detail, and then "Westminster stinks" etc. Independence is massive - absolutely huge. People deserve a bit of detail about what the SNP will do secure it, because to my eye it all looks like sabre rattling but no detail. Independence means taking care of it all, including the awkward stuff...

Criticism of the SNP is not criticism of Scots FFS.

not every politician in Scottish Parliament is SNP but one poster regularly insists that every single MSP - every single one - is 'thick'.

We've had people saying that Scotland is looked down on in the rest of Europe. Posters saying they 'feel sorry for' people who've lived here all their lives..I could go on and on.. There's been countless derogatory comments about Scots and Scotland *GraffittiQueen' not just, SNP, that's my point

by the way I have never demonised anyone for having a job!!

Happygolurkey not every politician in Scottish Parliament is SNP but one poster regularly insists that every single MSP - every single one - is 'thick'.

That would be your targetting, yet again. And no, I did not say that every single MSP is thick. I said that some are. And they certainly are thick. Or deliberately misguided and in it for their own benefit. Or both. The Scottish Parliament needs to attract bright, motivated people, and this sort of low level sniping chamber that its turning into is putting people who would do a good job of.

We've had people saying that Scotland is looked down on in the rest of Europe.

Again, me. I've recently lived in both Holland and Germany, and certainly there are some whom I've met who think Scotland isn't the great eutopian paradise the SNP would have us believe.

Can't you cope with having your prejudices challenged or something?

Posters saying they 'feel sorry for' people who've lived here all their lives

You're misuoting me here, but I would always encourage people to live abroad in their lives if they can, or at least travel within their own country. But thats not exactly a radical notion. Again, I have no idea why things which are perfectly normal in other countries upset you so much. Its as if you can only cope with one very strict way of seeing things, and anyone who has a slightly different opinion/experience/background is mad/bad/evil.

You do realise that its really quite normal to have a healthy disregard for the politicians in your own country, and that this hero worship that some seem to do isn't really that healthy?

Why are you so terrified of challenging your entrenched views? Why not be more open minded?

@happygolurkey

Criticism of the SNP is not criticism of Scots FFS.

not every politician in Scottish Parliament is SNP but one poster regularly insists that every single MSP - every single one - is 'thick'.

We've had people saying that Scotland is looked down on in the rest of Europe. Posters saying they 'feel sorry for' people who've lived here all their lives..I could go on and on.. There's been countless derogatory comments about Scots and Scotland *GraffittiQueen' not just, SNP, that's my point

Receipts please.

happygolurkey by the way I have never demonised anyone for having a job!!

No, but you certainly demonised me for daring to say that not having a job might be a bit of a problem. Because your attitude and thinking means that we should ignore all the social problems caused by long term unemployment in Scotland, which means it will never be tackled properly. And there is a big problem about abuse online and political intolerance, and it is relevant to mention that those who do not need to work for a living are in a better position to post what they like online, without fear that they will lose their jobs.

I was actually harassed, in person, by a well known cybernat (I recognised him from a newspaper article which also confirmed that he is long term unemployed and lives with his parents. Yet he is particularly active online, you could in fact say its a full time job with overtime for him, courtesy of the state which pays his benefits. I wasn't harassed over a political issue by him, no, he think he is entitled to tell women in the street what to wear!

There is 2 things that I really dislike with scottish politics
1: the number of "career politicians" aka done very little in working world other then work for the party
2: the first stance of election being about another party! (you get this in Westminster as well but it feels like this is the only argument up here SNP and Tories the same which is ironic when SNP says they aren't like the tories!)

To me people should be able to discuss politics, have a reasonable conversation, parties should stand on their success record and what they plan for the future not mud slinging matches.
Scottish Parliament has always said its not for jeering etc yet we have seen this recently in the last Parliament. I think it's disrespectful and shameful. I hate it in Westminster too.

I can't have a reasonable political discussion with even many friends in real life because I get told I'm English, this isn't my "homeland" and I have no right to be involved apparently..... (all said last referendum by friends).
Yet I live here, my son was born here and pay my taxes here (which for me is more than if I lived in England). I have a rugby season ticket and cheer Scotland on (including against England matches).

Politics should be about reasonable discussions on all sides!

Well said @Scottishskifun

@Scottishskifun - that sounds rather sad that you can live somewhere and not be recognised as contributing.

I wouldn't like the "homeland" bit either; but I think you are talking about how English people regard politics, which is that there is no sense of "national" identity. I don't know about you, but it was considered to be insecure and gauche if you had to insist on national identity not even very long ago, likewise symbolism, flags, discussion of same.

The reasons for that in England are obvious when you look at the history. It didn't do the country much good and people fought each other.

When England stopped having internal wars and conflict, it became a stronger country and much more powerful. Not a coincidence.